Can Equivalence Principle Be Violated?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the implications of a laboratory experiment involving a laser gyroscope that appears to exhibit unexpected acceleration. Participants explore whether this phenomenon could indicate a violation of the Equivalence Principle, a fundamental concept in general relativity. The conversation includes considerations of the experimental results, potential explanations, and the broader implications for physics, including concepts like propellantless propulsion and the Unruh effect.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the validity of the experiment, suggesting that it has only been observed in one laboratory and may not represent sound science.
  • Others express skepticism about the implications of the results, arguing that even if reproducible, the observed effect might be explained by other means rather than indicating a violation of the Equivalence Principle.
  • One participant highlights the significance of the Equivalence Principle in current theories, particularly general relativity, and emphasizes the need for a solid case to refute it.
  • There are references to the work of M. E. McCullock and the potential connections to various unexplained phenomena, though some participants remain cautious about the ambitious claims made in this context.
  • Speculation arises about the possibility of propellantless propulsion and whether the observed effect could be related to the Unruh effect, but these ideas are met with skepticism by others.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of skepticism and curiosity regarding the experiment and its implications. There is no consensus on whether the results indicate a violation of the Equivalence Principle, and multiple competing views remain regarding the interpretation of the findings.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of the current understanding, including the dependence on the definitions of inertia and the need for further investigation into the experimental results. The discussion reflects uncertainty about the broader implications of the findings and the interpretations of the involved theories.

sanman
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Read about this experiment and the results obtained:

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-gyroscope-unexplained-due-inertia.html


What's going on here? Why is the laser gyro accelerating? If this effect proves to be reproducible, would it not indicate the violability of the so-called Equivalence Principle? How can this be possible?

Is this the inverse of the Unruh effect? Could it enable propellantless propulsion?
 
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So far, the effect has only been observed in this one laboratory.
It does not look like sound science to me.

Could it enable propellantless propulsion?
Crackpot idea.

would it not indicate the violability of the so-called Equivalence Principle?
'So-called' ? Crackpot language.
 
sanman said:
Read about this experiment and the results obtained:

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-gyroscope-unexplained-due-inertia.html


What's going on here? Why is the laser gyro accelerating? If this effect proves to be reproducible, would it not indicate the violability of the so-called Equivalence Principle? How can this be possible?

This is quite a strange effect, and the explanation proposed is even weirder. The equivalence of inertial mass and gravitational mass is a key piece in the current theories and especially GR, so I would say that one must have a very very solid case to refute it.
So even if the effect is reproducible, it wouldn't indicate EP violation, since the effect might be better explained some other way.
 
sanman said:
Read about this experiment and the results obtained:

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-gyroscope-unexplained-due-inertia.htmlWhat's going on here? Why is the laser gyro accelerating? If this effect proves to be reproducible, would it not indicate the violability of the so-called Equivalence Principle? How can this be possible?

Is this the inverse of the Unruh effect? Could it enable propellantless propulsion?

The PhysOrg.com article is a bit thin. It is drawn primarily from a paper by M. E. McCullock, Can the Tajmar effect be explained using a modification of inertia? http://iopscience.iop.org/0295-5075/89/1/19001/pdf/0295-5075_89_1_19001.pdf and perhaps to some extent a previous paper also by McCullock, The Tajmar effect from quantised inertia: http://iopscience.iop.org/0295-5075/95/3/39002/pdf/epl_95_3_39002.pdf.

The laser gyroscope experiments were actually performed by Tajmar. McCullock references several of his papers. I don't have copies or links to Tajmar's papers, at this time.

I have only had time for a first read through. McCullock obviously believes he is describing the mechanism of inertia. Though I find his papers interesting, I am yet skeptical. It will take time to digest in a serious way. Having only just become aware of the work and the scope of his claims, including frame dragging, the flyby anomaly, inertia itself and the pioneer anomally.., well for me, it is a lot to consider and integrate.

While the I think the PhysOrg article mentioned the potential to harness inertia should the work prove up, that seems a stretch. On the other hand if he is even just on to something that needs further development and does address the mechanism of inertia, there seems the potential for some exciting times ahead.

Let the sensation die down and I am not sure it will get much serious attention. While it may be exciting to connect so many unexplained or under explained phenomena, it is a bit ambitious.
 
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