Can Every Spherically Symmetric Spacetime Be Represented by a Penrose Diagram?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation of spherically symmetric spacetimes using Penrose diagrams. Participants explore the feasibility of drawing precise Penrose diagrams for various spacetimes, including Schwarzschild, de Sitter, and Reissner-Nordstrom metrics, while also considering the general principles that govern these diagrams.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants seek recommendations for resources to learn about Penrose diagrams, expressing varying levels of familiarity with the concepts involved.
  • There is a discussion about the specific features that a Penrose diagram should exhibit, such as the representation of null geodesics as straight lines and the finite length of these geodesics in the diagram.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the interpretation of time-like linear lines on the Carter-Penrose diagram of the extended Schwarzschild spacetime, questioning whether they are geodetic curves.
  • One participant mentions the existence of coordinate transformations that can yield Penrose diagrams from other coordinate systems, referencing specific cases like the Schwarzschild metric.
  • Another participant suggests that while special cases are well-documented, there is a desire for a more general description applicable to other spherically symmetric spacetimes.
  • There is a technical inquiry about the behavior of timelike worldlines at the Schwarzschild horizon, suggesting a potential contradiction in their representation on Penrose diagrams.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and uncertainty regarding the principles of Penrose diagrams, with some acknowledging the need for more general descriptions while others focus on specific cases. The discussion remains unresolved on several technical points, particularly concerning the nature of time-like lines and their representation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their understanding of the concepts and the resources available, indicating that some assumptions may not be fully addressed in the literature they reference. There is also a recognition that the discussion of timelike worldlines and their properties on Penrose diagrams may require further clarification.

  • #31
Thanks.

If Penrose-Carter diagram means:

1) compactificated space-time diagram and
2) null-like world lines are 45 degree lines

than, every spherically symmetric space-time has Carer-Penrose diagram?
If Yes, can you cite a paper about proving the existence?

Else:
on the 2D Carter-Penrose diagram only radial motion can be studied,
what about 3D=2+1 Penrose-Carter diagrams? Can you draw it?
The 2D diagram is simply rotated?
 
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  • #32
mersecske said:
Thanks.

If Penrose-Carter diagram means:

1) compactificated space-time diagram and
2) null-like world lines are 45 degree lines

than, every spherically symmetric space-time has Carer-Penrose diagram?
Yes, I found a reference confirming this--see p. 48 of 'Gravitational Collapse and Spacetime Singularities on google books, in the paragraph right before section 2.7.4 the author says:
The structure of infinity for any spherically symmetric spacetime can be depicted by a similar Penrose diagram.
Likewise, p. 20 of http://www.mittag-leffler.se/preprints/0809f/files/IML-0809f-14.pdf talks about how to define the black hole interior region as a complement of the exterior region described in terms of a Penrose diagram, and says:
For spherically symmetric spacetimes arising as solutions of the Cauchy problem for (2), one can show that there always exists a Penrose diagram, and thus, a definition can be formalised along precisely these lines (see [60]).
Here reference [60] is M. Dafermos http://iopscience.iop.org/0264-9381/22/11/019/
mersecske said:
If Yes, can you cite a paper about proving the existence?
I think the Dafermos paper above probably proves it, although understanding it would probably require more knowledge of topological reasoning in GR than I have...
mersecske said:
on the 2D Carter-Penrose diagram only radial motion can be studied,
what about 3D=2+1 Penrose-Carter diagrams? Can you draw it?
The 2D diagram is simply rotated?
No, it can't be a simple rotation, that would imply that in the maximally extended Schwarzschild solution one could travel around in a circle from the exterior region I on the right to the other exterior region III on the left of the diagram, which is supposed to represent a "different universe"! In fact I would guess (though I don't know this for a fact) that if Penrose diagrams are specific to spherically symmetric spacetimes, then they would always be two dimensional, with the radial dimension shown and the angular coordinates suppressed. It may help to think in terms of the fact that any if you take any spacelike surface through a Penrose diagram (or a Kruskal-Szkeres diagram, which looks basically identical except that it doesn't compress the spacetime to a finite size), which will just be any line closer to the horizontal than 45 degrees, there will be an http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/embed.diag.html showing the curvature of space in that spacelike surface. This embedding diagram will depict one of the two angular dimensions in addition to the radial dimension depicted on the Penrose/Kruskal-Szekeres diagram. For example, p. 528 of Gravitation by Misner/Thorne/Wheeler shows embedding diagrams for various spacelike slices through the Kruskal-Szekeres diagram:

p528Gravitationsmall.jpg


Each point on a Penrose/Kruskal-Szekeres diagram actually represents a spherical region of space at constant radius (with both angular coordinates allowed to vary), so in the embedding diagrams each point on the spacelike surface becomes a circle (since the embedding diagram only shows 2 of the 3 spatial dimensions)--you can see that a cross-section of any of the above embedding diagrams would be a circle (several of these embedding diagrams illustrate a Schwarzschild wormhole or 'Einstein-Rosen bridge', see also the animations in the section of http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schww.html titled 'Instability of the Schwarzschild Wormhole'). Here, on the other hand, you can see on the right a Kruskal-Szekeres diagram for a more realistic black hole that forms from a collapsing star, with no white hole interior region or second exterior region on the left:

realisticBHkruskalsmall.jpg


And here was my guess about what embedding diagrams for spacelike slices through this diagram would look like:

sketchofrealisticBHsmall.jpg
 
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