Can External Forces Change an Object's Mass Without Altering its Velocity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the question of whether external forces can change an object's mass without altering its velocity, particularly in the context of classical mechanics. Participants explore various scenarios and examples, including classical and relativistic perspectives, while considering the implications of Newton's laws.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that changing mass is often overlooked outside of textbook rocket problems, questioning if there are examples where an external force changes rest mass while keeping velocity constant.
  • One participant mentions wind erosion as a potential example, arguing that it could reduce the mass of an object while it remains in motion.
  • Another participant challenges the idea of mass change, pondering the implications of a field that could reduce mass and questioning where the mass would go if it doesn't simply chip off.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between force and mass, with some participants noting that velocity can remain constant even when mass changes, referencing the equation F = m · dot(v) + v · dot(m).
  • One participant introduces the idea of an object spinning about a fixed axis, suggesting that a constant axial torque could change the moment of inertia while maintaining constant angular speed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of changing mass without altering velocity, with some proposing examples and others questioning the underlying principles. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference both classical and relativistic mechanics, highlighting the differences in how mass is understood in these contexts. There are also discussions about the implications of Newton's laws and the definitions of force, which may influence interpretations of the problem.

wotanub
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I was thinking about Newton's law. The case of changing mass is often ignored outside the textbook rocket problems. Are there and examples of the effect of an external force is to change the rest mass of an object while leaving velocity constant?

I am familiar with something like in a particle accelerator in which particle are moving near the speed of light, but I do know that in relativistic mechanics, the measurement of "mass" is different from the rest mass. I'm specifically inquiring about phenomena in the classical regime, although I guest that classically, mass doesn't change.
 
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but I do know that in relativistic mechanics, the measurement of "mass" is different from the rest mass.
In relativistic mechanics, "mass" is the same as "rest mass".

The only example class I can see:
If wind leads to erosion, a small fraction of the force is used to reduce the mass of the object in the wind.
 
What I meant was, in general, [itex]m = \gamma m_{0}[/itex], since [itex]m ≈ m_{0}[/itex] at non-relativistic speeds.

Isn't wind erosion basically sand blasting though? Effectively breaking off pieces of rock (moving/accelerating them). Perhaps I'm thinking of it wrong.

The more I think about this, the more I think it just really isn't possible because what I had in mind is some kind of field that would reduce the mass of a body placed in it. But where would the mass (elementary particles) go if it doesn't simply chip off? I guess it would be converted to energy or use some fancy quantum mechanical tunneling trick, but this would confound Newton. Maybe the problem comes from thinking of a mass as composed of many quanta as opposed to just a blob of stuff.

Then it get's me imagining a bizzaro-world where the norm is for the mass to change and it's hard to think of a case where only velocity changes.
 
wotanub said:
What I meant was, in general, [itex]m = \gamma m_{0}[/itex], since [itex]m ≈ m_{0}[/itex] at non-relativistic speeds.
This "relativistic mass" is not used in physics any more.

Isn't wind erosion basically sand blasting though? Effectively breaking off pieces of rock (moving/accelerating them).
Right
It is the same at rockets, you accelerate the exhaust away from the rocket.
 
wotanub said:
I was thinking about Newton's law. The case of changing mass is often ignored outside the textbook rocket problems. Are there and examples of the effect of an external force is to change the rest mass of an object while leaving velocity constant?
Do you mean an external net force F on a body of total mass m which centre of mass has velocity v? How could the velocity not vary, since F = ma (non relativistic regime)?
 
lightarrow said:
How could the velocity not vary, since F = ma (non relativistic regime)?

Velocity can remain constant since [itex]F = m \cdot \dot v + v \cdot \dot m[/itex] (even in non relativistic regime). It seems unusual but it corresponds to the original definition of force.
 
DrStupid said:
Velocity can remain constant since [itex]F = m \cdot \dot v + v \cdot \dot m[/itex] (even in non relativistic regime). It seems unusual but it corresponds to the original definition of force.
If [itex]v[/itex] doesn't vary, [itex]F = v \cdot \dot m[/itex] which means that the system's centre of mass varies and this is a different case from the one I asked, but I have understood better the OP' question now.

If we are not necessarily talking of a linear trajectory but we can also consider an object spinning about a fixed axis, another example could do this: the object spins at constant angular speed while there is a constant non-zero axial torque on it, provided that the moment of inertia varies in the appropriate way.
 
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