Can I get a Ph.D. in physics if my bachelor's degree isn't in physics

[nuclear_dog]

Just wanted to add , that in India students who wish to go for masters in physics have to appear for a national level test called Joint Admission test for MSc (JAM) . The questions are of the level that any above average physics BSc student can answer . I think they can also serve as a good self-evaluation tool ( perhaps a slightly better test than GRE physics )

http://www.iitb.ac.in/~pge/jam_qp/

(Select PH question paper)

 

[imroze99]

I currently pursuing engineering in electronics can I go in the field of astrophysics in higher studies like or even after masters in electronics also after giving some exam on physics aptitute ?

 

[ZapperZ]

I currently pursuing engineering in electronics can I go in the field of astrophysics in higher studies like or even after masters in electronics also after giving some exam on physics aptitute ?

Please read the beginning of this thread. You are missing its main point. Read msg 87

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=4178435&postcount=87

Zz.

 

[nabil0]

ZapperZ, Imagine that I can pass all the required GRE tests in physics/math but I don't hold a bachelor's degree in any field that requires math so all my knowledge come from self-study . Does this substitute for an undergraduate program ? I'm reading graduate textbooks in physics e.g jackson and peskin ,How could this help with my application?

 

[ZapperZ]

ZapperZ, Imagine that I can pass all the required GRE tests in physics/math but I don't hold a bachelor's degree in any field that requires math so all my knowledge come from self-study . Does this substitute for an undergraduate program ? I'm reading graduate textbooks in physics e.g jackson and peskin ,How could this help with my application?

Pass the GRE tests?

You don't "pass" such tests. You get a score, and it is up to the individual school to use that score any way appropriate.

You didn't do the 2nd part of the self-test.

Until you actually can get the score within the top 25%, I'd rather not waste time and speculate on something I've never seen.

Zz.

 

[saim_]

ZapperZ, can we cheat in the GRE test mentioned in your first post of this thread? Because, while I scored above 75th percentile, I had to cheat a bit. I knew how to do the problems, but, I didn't remember all the formulae, especially in the EM part.

 

[ZapperZ]

ZapperZ, can we cheat in the GRE test mentioned in your first post of this thread? Because, while I scored above 75th percentile, I had to cheat a bit. I knew how to do the problems, but, I didn't remember all the formulae, especially in the EM part.

Why should I care if you cheat when you don't? This is your own self test.

Zz.

 

[saim_]

I don't mean to ask if you care or not. I mean to ask whether you think it makes a lot of difference or not if I look for a few formulae while doing the test. In other words, does your test work as an open book exam as well, in your opinion?

 

[ZapperZ]

I don't mean to ask if you care or not. I mean to ask whether you think it makes a lot of difference or not if I look for a few formulae while doing the test. In other words, does your test work as an open book exam as well, in your opinion?

If, by looking, it simply means that you know what they are, how to use them, and what they mean physically and you just didn't remember them, then it shouldn't matter. However, if by looking at them you simply plugged-and-chugged, then it does matter.

Please note that you are not trying to pass anything. You are using these tests as your own self-evaluation. In the end, it is for YOU to decide if you are well-prepared enough to try physics graduate school.

Also note that the GRE Physics test is a cakewalk when compared to the department's qualifying exams. I would pay more attention to those.

Zz.

 

[nabil0]

Pass the GRE tests?

You don't "pass" such tests. You get a score, and it is up to the individual school to use that score any way appropriate.

You didn't do the 2nd part of the self-test.

Until you actually can get the score within the top 25%, I'd rather not waste time and speculate on something I've never seen.

Zz.

I actually meant to get a top score , I've actually downloaded a version of the physics and math test . The questions are not that hard . It's the type of problems that you find in undergraduate textbooks .I'm actually reading graduate level textbooks now

 

[ZapperZ]

I actually meant to get a top score , I've actually downloaded a version of the physics and math test . The questions are not that hard . It's the type of problems that you find in undergraduate textbooks .I'm actually reading graduate level textbooks now

Then I suggest you actually sit for the physics GRE and tell me what score you get.

Zz.

 

[Bunsen]

And what about a jump from a PhD in mathematical modeling of turbulent flows to a postdoc in astrophysics? Do you think something like this is possible? or the only option is to do a second PhD?

 

[ZapperZ]

And what about a jump from a PhD in mathematical modeling of turbulent flows to a postdoc in astrophysics? Do you think something like this is possible? or the only option is to do a second PhD?

Please start a new thread. That is outside the scope of the topic for this thread.

Zz.

 

[Zerkor]

If I got a good score in GRE, can I get into graduate school without even having a bachelor's?

 

[Alkemyst]

Hello there,

So, I found this thread a while ago (about a year) and actually followed through. I graduated with a B.S. in chemistry this past August, with minors in math and physics. I did this in 3 years and got a 3.7 GPA. I did 5 semesters of physics research (fluid instabilities at chemical reaction fronts and some nonlinear pattern formation stuff).

I got 600 on this year's October physics GRE (31th percentile). Not anything to be proud of, but I'm making all the good excuses, like... besides the overlap between the disciplines, I've really only had the calc-based sequence, a modern physics course (relativity and some quantum), and Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos (which obviously wasn't a top 5 GRE topic). I think I gave this the good college try.

That being said, I assume it's not good enough. What should I do to keep pursing this? I currently teach as an adjunct physics instructor at my old university. They don't have a physics degree, or else, I would've just gotten one, dammit. I know that's the easiest way of going about this. For those who would ask *snooty voice* "Why didn't you transfer?" Good for you that you could afford to leave state. As an adjunct, I have 3 credits free, so I thought I'd grab what else they offer in the mean time, but they can't do much beyond what services other departments. :(

I talked to an advisor about an engineering degree, and that would take me another 4 years and a lot of money because I'd be part time. BUT, I don't think I'm that far off from being a decent candidate. Is it possibly worthwhile to spring the few hundred dollars (not trivial) that applications cost all together and see how I fare, or should I build myself up a little? I'm not aiming high, schoolwise -- UColoradoBoulder and University of New Mexico mainly.

Thanks!

 

[nctweg]

Just wanted to let you all know (since you've all been a big help to me) that I'm one of the people who posted here earlier looking for advice (I'm on a different account as the other one is personally identifiable). Well, today I just got my first acceptance letter to a Ph.D program. Thought I'd just give a success story since there aren't really any here and it's probably pretty uncommon for it to be the case.

But anyway, what I did was take a year and a half of classes to fulfill the knowledge gap, take the GREs, PGREs, do research, etc. All of the stuff everyone here, especially ZapperZ, insisted was necessary. And it definitely was.

For those who are considering this path, it can be done for sure. Wasn't easy at all but as I see it, there's no other path to this. Thanks to everyone for the advice!

 

[Cosmicnaut]

Just wanted to let you all know (since you've all been a big help to me) that I'm one of the people who posted here earlier looking for advice (I'm on a different account as the other one is personally identifiable). Well, today I just got my first acceptance letter to a Ph.D program. Thought I'd just give a success story since there aren't really any here and it's probably pretty uncommon for it to be the case.

But anyway, what I did was take a year and a half of classes to fulfill the knowledge gap, take the GREs, PGREs, do research, etc. All of the stuff everyone here, especially ZapperZ, insisted was necessary. And it definitely was.

For those who are considering this path, it can be done for sure. Wasn't easy at all but as I see it, there's no other path to this. Thanks to everyone for the advice!

Hey, I came upon this thread because I am in the same boat as you and wanted to say thanks for the success update!

I have a handful questions: Did you go back for another BS? or did you do a MSc program after doing the required steps? What was your bachelors degree in? Did the classes you did for a year and half fulfill the requirement for just the BSc or MSc? Did you go straight into a MSc/Phd program?

I graduated with a bachelors in business and I am currently enrolled to take physics and math classes at a community college to fulfill just undergraduate pre-reqs. I was not able to direct message you, but please feel free to direct message me because this may be off topic.

Cheers

 

[nctweg]

Eh, I think it's relevant to the topic. Maybe just as one option of action, anyway.

My undergrad was in business, like yours. I went back to take classes as a non-degree student; no MSc, no BS, just classes. The undergraduate director at the school I did it at suggested that a second degree was of no real benefit if I could just prove that the coursework was done and I was well prepared.

Since I did this in a year and a half, I could not take all the requirements for a typical undergrad degree. But I took the core classes (E&M, Mechanics, QM, Thermal) and around 3-4 elective courses in special topics to get a better feeling for what I wanted to specialize in. For example, I took the following - nuclear/particles, cosmology, astrophysics, solid state, and biophysics courses (1 in each, so I guess 5 elective courses). The main thing I am still missing is an upper level lab course.

As far as I can tell, your biggest obstacle is getting a decent amount of research under your belt. It's incredibly unlikely that you'll find your way into a Harvard / Princeton type school without having research experience (not that this is necessarily what you're looking for). You may want to try to find research over at whatever big university is local because you absolutely are going to need it, and it'll give you a strong letter of recommendation. I got myself involved in a somewhat unique research project for an undergrad which I do think helped me a lot.

Aside from that, take the classes and do decently on the Physics GRE and you should end up in a similar position. The PGRE is sort of like a proving grounds (a lot of admissions committees apparently correlate PGRE scores with success on qualifying exams - or so I've been told by professors). It'll be incredibly helpful for someone in your position to ace them but it's only really important that you get a decent score. Assuming you're American; international students are kind of obligated to do much better.

Much of this is information I've found to be true but has also been told to me by various professors at my school. But admissions committees are somewhat mysterious so you never really know. Also, one last thing is, when you apply, make sure your personal statement / statement of purpose is very good. A lot of applicants write generic, bland statements because they feel that they aren't important - and they might not be for them. Since you have a situation to explain and, I assume, a story to go with it, it's very important that your statement be good.

Anyway, I went a little off-topic at the end there. So let me know if you've got more questions.

 

[Cosmicnaut]

Thank you very much! It is extremely helpful and invaluable. I have also talked to people who said going back for another degree would be a waste of time and money but others said it would be necessary for me to go back for a B.S to get a MSc/Phd.

Just to clarify, you skipped going back for another Bs and a MSc and went straight to a Phd by taking the core classes, doing great research and having a strong PGRE?

Did you do the classes at a 4-year university or a Community College? Were you working when going back (I may have to for rent purposes)? Or was it full time? I saw that you listed the core classes you took, was that for the PhD program you applied for or is it just physics in general?

I figured I would do the research if I went back for a BS or MSc but it seems like you didn't do that (which seems a much better route for me) How did you get in touch with universities to do research? I am fortunate enough that I live in heavily university populated area.

Sorry if I asked redundant or personal questions, I just want to make sure I have everything covered and understood.

Thanks again! This is really clearing up a lot of confusion I've been getting the last few days.

 

[nctweg]

Just to clarify, you skipped going back for another Bs and a MSc and went straight to a Phd by taking the core classes, doing great research and having a strong PGRE?

Well, I didn't really do "great research" or have a very strong PGRE to be honest. My research project is just unique and has given me the opportunity to work with a great professor who didn't pawn me off to a post-doc or grad student. So I had a lot of room to impress, whereas doing something like collecting data would probably not have been as good and would have resulted in a more generic letter I think. And I haven't yet gone to the Ph.D. I've been accepted but won't be actually going until the fall (maybe the summer, depending on the program).

Did you do the classes at a 4-year university or a Community College? Were you working when going back (I may have to for rent purposes)? Or was it full time? I saw that you listed the core classes you took, was that for the PhD program you applied for or is it just physics in general?

I did it at a 4-year university. Community colleges I don't think typically offer the upper level courses but I may be wrong. I was doing it full time (now I'm only part time) but I also got a job as a lab instructor (basically a TA) which paid decently. Teaching 3 classes would have been enough to pay to go full time.

The core classes are classes every physics student needs to be familiar with. Many schools won't even consider you if you can't show that you've taken them; some schools specifically list the preparation they prefer to see. When you go into the phd program, you're expected to know the core stuff - any missing classes can be filled in if need be but you are really going to be disadvantaged if you do not have the basics.

I figured I would do the research if I went back for a BS or MSc but it seems like you didn't do that (which seems a much better route for me) How did you get in touch with universities to do research? I am fortunate enough that I live in heavily university populated area.

As I said, I did my classes at a 4-year school. A big state school with a large physics department. So to find research I just read up on what the professors did, found one I was interested in working with, and popped into his office to talk about it. Finding research really shouldn't be too hard - just ask a bunch of professors.

The one thing I would say is this - don't rush it like I did. What I did was really not ideal and I would recommend anyone following in my footsteps to try to do it in 2 years. I did all of my core classes in one and it was rough. It wouldn't be as rough if I were doing it now but it was very difficult having only had the intro-level course under my belt. The intro-level courses just don't provide the preparation necessary to jump into four/five simultaneous upper level physics courses. But that's just my opinion.

Long story short - you are going to absolutely need to take most, if not all of these: E&M 1,2; Classical Mechanics 1,2; Quantum mechanics; Thermodynamics. I'd consider this to be your minimum.

Again though, take all of what I say kind of with a grain of salt (at least until someone else confirms). I'm not on an admissions committee - I am just relaying what I've learned and what my professors have told me.

 

[Cosmicnaut]

Again though, take all of what I say kind of with a grain of salt (at least until someone else confirms). I'm not on an admissions committee - I am just relaying what I've learned and what my professors have told me.

I completely understand and thank you again for the amazing input! One last question, did any of your advisors/professors say that the various graduate programs may find your business bachelors strange? Or did it not really matter because you fulfilled what they were looking for?

Cheers

 

[nctweg]

I completely understand and thank you again for the amazing input! One last question, did any of your advisors/professors say that the various graduate programs may find your business bachelors strange? Or did it not really matter because you fulfilled what they were looking for?

Cheers

None of my professors ever did. I always thought it would make me stand out a bit more in the graduate committees but honestly, I've never once received any comment about it for good or bad. Then again though, this is what the personal statement is ideal for explaining (and what I used it for).

 

[Cosmicnaut]

None of my professors ever did. I always thought it would make me stand out a bit more in the graduate committees but honestly, I've never once received any comment about it for good or bad. Then again though, this is what the personal statement is ideal for explaining (and what I used it for).

Thank you so much for everything! Good luck with everything

 

[ZapperZ]

I intend to update this post as I go along and find more links.

At the beginning of this VERY long thread, I mentioned two things you should do as a self-check on your ability to get through a US PhD program: the Physics GRE, and a typical qualifying exam, preferably from the schools you wish to apply to. I also note that for the qualifying exams, the self-check here involves not the actual solving of the questions given (which you can attempt if you wish), but actually just simply having an idea on how to solve such problems. In other words, you actually know the physics involved, and the steps you need to proceed to solve them.

In this post, I would like to make a list of various webpages from different schools that have put their past-year's physics qualifying exams online. This is to give you a chance to look at the questions being asked from a wide range of schools, and then to asses your own knowledge and abilities for yourself. Only you can asses if you are sufficiently prepared.

If you have links to add, you may do so by either posting them here (and I'll update this post), or you may msg me with the link and I'll post it here. If you notice a broken link, please let me know.

So here goes:

1. http://physics.columbia.edu/qalifying-exam-quals (ignore the typo in "Qalifying")
2. UCSD (this is not from the university's website, but it purportedly has solutions to some of the exams. Accuracy and correctness are not guaranteed.).
3. University of Oregon
4. University of Illinois at Chicago
5. Yale University
6. http://physics.illinois.edu/grad/qual-archive.asp
7. Purdue University
8. http://umdphysics.umd.edu/academics/graduate/qualifier.html
9. Rutgers University
10. http://www.princeton.edu/physics/graduate-program/prelims/
11. SUNY-Buffalo
12. Illinois Institute of Technology
13. https://www.rpi.edu/dept/phys/graduate/exams/
14. MIT
15. SUNY-Stony Brook
16. https://www.physics.wisc.edu/academics/gradstudents/qualifying-exams
17. University of Toledo
18. https://www.pa.msu.edu/grad/exam.php
19. University of Nevada-Reno
20. http://www.phys.psu.edu/graduate/candidacy-examsZz.

 

[mattjohnson777]

I intend to update this post as I go along and find more links.

At the beginning of this VERY long thread, I mentioned two things you should do as a self-check on your ability to get through a US PhD program: the Physics GRE, and a typical qualifying exam, preferably from the schools you wish to apply to. I also note that for the qualifying exams, the self-check here involves not the actual solving of the questions given (which you can attempt if you wish), but actually just simply having an idea on how to solve such problems. In other words, you actually know the physics involved, and the steps you need to proceed to solve them.

In this post, I would like to make a list of various webpages from different schools that have put their past-year's physics qualifying exams online. This is to give you a chance to look at the questions being asked from a wide range of schools, and then to asses your own knowledge and abilities for yourself. Only you can asses if you are sufficiently prepared.

If you have links to add, you may do so by either posting them here (and I'll update this post), or you may msg me with the link and I'll post it here. If you notice a broken link, please let me know.

So here goes:

1. http://physics.columbia.edu/qalifying-exam-quals (ignore the typo in "Qalifying")
2. UCSC (this is not from the university's website, but it purportedly has solutions to some of the exams. Accuracy and correctness are not guaranteed.).
3. University of Oregon
4. University of Illinois at Chicago
5. Yale University
6. http://physics.illinois.edu/grad/qual-archive.asp
7. Purdue University
8. http://umdphysics.umd.edu/academics/graduate/qualifier.html
9. Rutgers University
10. http://www.princeton.edu/physics/graduate-program/prelims/
11. SUNY-Buffalo
12. Illinois Institute of TechnologyZz.

Hey! I'm still pretty new to Physics Forums, but I love this place. I'm a Chemistry major and just finished up a year of learning quantum and thermodynamic theory, and I have completely fallen in love with the mathematically beautiful physics. I was getting kind of blue that I may not be able to apply to a graduate program after I finish this last year at my program, but this is giving me hope to attempt to apply to some, including some on this list, so I really appreciate it.

Would you say the ability to do well in one of these exams as well as good grades in my undergrad (albeit a chemistry program) as well as research experience may warrant me the ability to get into a physics program?

 

[lisab]

Hey! I'm still pretty new to Physics Forums, but I love this place. I'm a Chemistry major and just finished up a year of learning quantum and thermodynamic theory, and I have completely fallen in love with the mathematically beautiful physics. I was getting kind of blue that I may not be able to apply to a graduate program after I finish this last year at my program, but this is giving me hope to attempt to apply to some, including some on this list, so I really appreciate it.

Would you say the ability to do well in one of these exams as well as good grades in my undergrad (albeit a chemistry program) as well as research experience may warrant me the ability to get into a physics program?

Have you attempted the practice GRE in physics? Zapper references it in the first post in this thread.

 

[MindGrapes]

Hi,

I've been browsing the forums for a while now and really appreciate the quality information on here. I don't have a question so much as I wanted to tell my story in the vein of this thread, just to pile some more data on the stack for other browsers to consider. So here's the short version of my background :

I graduated from UC Santa Cruz back in 2008 with a B.S. in Information Systems Management, which included calculus/linear algebra (although I haven't done much actual math since then), and some CE/CS. I've made a successful career as a consultant in software but I've always loved physics. I've had a few moments where I seriously considered switching careers, but then something else always came up (i.e. moved abroad, got a new job, got a fat raise, etc.). I'm 29 now and have felt a strong pull to do something more substantial, so I started exploring and found physics again. I decided that this time I'd make a deal with myself, I bought a book that essentially covers the first 1.5 years of introductory physics and told myself if I could get through the whole book, including all the problem sets, and still be genuinely fired up/interested in physics then I'd take it seriously.

I've completed that book and am moving on to the next phase, seeing if I can teach myself enough to do well on the Physics GRE. My plan in general is to break it all down into bite sized chunks so that any point if I decide I've had enough that I can just walk away without having really lost anything and having enjoyed myself along the way. I'm finding that I've never been so motivated to learn something, I actually enjoy spending my evenings and weekends just studying/learning physics (my friends think I'm a little nuts).

Anyway, how this is at all related to this thread... My goal is to pursue a PhD in physics because I feel that the depth of the topics involved in physics are so profound that I wouldn't be satisfied to simply continue learning in my free time, I want to learn enough to actually contribute in a meaningful way as well. My strategy keeps shifting as I learn more about what opportunities are available but right now my rough plan is to take the PGRE in Oct as sort of a baseline result (I expect to do horribly), then try to fill in as many gaps as possible by April when I will take it again. If I don't do as well as I want then I will again try to fill in the gaps, then take it again in Nov 2016. At which point I will apply to a PhD program for fall of 2017. That would give me another year to try to catch up some more. It gets a little fuzzy after that, I know I want to get involved somehow, possibly find some volunteer opportunities, network with people in related fields. I'm not in a huge rush, I figure if I am still pumped about physics after all that, then I will have no doubt in my mind that going on to do a PhD is the right move. Besides... I'm getting paid a truckload of money in the meantime in the IT world.

Hopefully my thought process makes sense and maybe gives some other kindred spirits an idea or two about what they might do. Thanks for all the info on the forums, it's been great so far!

 

[Vanadium 50]

Your plan is to cover the same material as a 4-year degree in physics in 15 months. While working full-time. Does this seem realistic to you?

 

[MindGrapes]

Well I don't think that's a particularly fair assessment of what I said... but at any rate, I don't look at it in that way. Naturally I may have some invalid assumptions, which may change my attitude and plan, however it doesn't seem like such an insurmountable feat to me for a few reasons :

- The 15 month time frame is just to apply to the schools, not when I'd be attending. I'd have another year in between those two events. Namely, to be successful in that schedule, I need to learn enough to do well on the PGRE, which it's my understanding doesn't really cover much of the last 1.5-2 years worth of undergraduate material.
- The whole idea that I'm doing 4 years worth of physics is also a little misleading since a 4 year degree in physics is not 4 years of physics, it includes a bunch of other stuff that you have to do to get a "well rounded education" (i.e. a 4 year degree). If it's anything like my own 4 year B.S. then a solid half of it was random general education that had nothing to do with my actual engineering degree.
- I'm not starting from scratch, I have 8 years of industry experience in software so I have programming experience, and I did do up through single variable calculus/linear algebra back in college so it's mostly refresher for that stuff.
- Being 29 instead of 19 makes a huge difference, I have significantly more discipline as well as more perspective by which to frame the things I'm learning
- I have the disposable income to spend on high quality learning materials, even paying for private tutoring if it comes to that. Similarly, if I find that 6 months from now my progress is not as fast as I want but I'm just absolutely chomping at the bit to do more in a shorter time frame, I can always find new employment arrangements such as part time.

Most of all though, as I said, I'm not in a rush. If it turns out that my assumptions about how much I can realistically accomplish in a given amount of time are bogus then of course I can evaluate if I want to continue or not. If my interest continues on the current trajectory (which of course there is no way of knowing that it will), then what difference does it make if I spend another year or two beyond this learning the fundamentals? I mean if the thought of taking 3 years instead of 2 years to prepare for a PhD program is really enough to scare me off, then I have to be honest with myself and say that this probably isn't for me.

Truth be told, I was hesitant to respond to this comment as I wasn't sure of the tone, my first reaction was that it was an attempt to deflate my excitement by trying to make me feel stupid or something. But I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and interpret it as you trying to inject some reality into what I imagine is a sea of starry eyed idealists who haven't yet experienced the challenge of prolonged, hard work.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You need more than 1.5 years of physics to do well on the PGRE .OK, maybe MIT physics, but not for the majority/ It's normally taken after 3.5 years, for a good reason.

Even spending 1/2 of a BS on gen ed, we're still talking about 2500 hours of work. Over 15 months works out to 40-45 hours a week. If you think you can do this in 20, that means you have to be twice as efficient as a college student - a student who may be 19, but also has access to faculty, TAs, graded homework, etc. If you think 15 is more reasonable, then you have to be three times as efficient. If you think this is reasonable, more power to you. To me, it looks like a lot to chew on - and I have a PhD in physics..