Can Kerr-Newman Geodesics Be Separated in Hamilton-Jacobi Equation with Charge?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of equations of motion for a charged test particle in the Kerr-Newman geometry, specifically focusing on the separability of the Hamilton-Jacobi equation. Participants explore the implications of including charge in the geodesic equations and the challenges faced in achieving separability.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes their attempts to derive the equations of motion for a charged particle in Kerr-Newman geometry, noting discrepancies in existing sources.
  • The participant presents the metric and potential for a black hole with parameters M, a, and Q, and outlines the geodesic equation and Hamiltonian for a test particle.
  • They express confusion over the assumption of separability in the Hamilton-Jacobi equation, questioning why it is claimed to be used in the derivation when it appears that only the dependence of momenta on coordinates is assumed.
  • The participant calculates the inverse metric elements and discusses the implications of charge on the separability of the Hamiltonian, concluding that the presence of charge introduces non-trivial dependencies that may prevent separability.
  • They acknowledge a limitation in their analysis by noting that their equations are invalid for massless particles, clarifying that they are considering a timelike massive test particle.
  • Subsequent posts express frustration over the lack of responses and reiterate the desire for insights on the most general geodesic formula for a test particle near a black hole.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus, and multiple competing views remain regarding the separability of the Hamilton-Jacobi equation in the presence of charge.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the assumptions made in the derivation, particularly concerning the treatment of charge and the implications for massless particles.

michael879
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I've found the equations of motion for a charged test particle in the Kerr-Newman geometry from a number of sources. However, they aren't very reliable and disagree on small details, so I'm trying to derive it myself. I'm completely stuck at the last step though, where you "use" the separability of the Hamilton-Jacobi equation to get the EOM of \dot{r} and \dot{\theta} without their second derivatives. Here is what I've got so far:

Metric + Potential (only part not derived/checked by me):
<br /> ds^2\equiv-\dfrac{\rho}{\Delta}dr^2-\rho^2d\theta^2+\dfrac{\Delta}{\rho^2}\left(dt-asin^2\theta d\phi\right)^2-\dfrac{sin^2\theta}{\rho^2}\left((r^2+a^2)d\phi-adt\right)^2 \\<br /> A_\mu\equiv \dfrac{Qr}{\rho^2}\left(\delta^t_\mu-asin^2\theta\delta^\phi_\mu\right) \\<br /> \Delta\equiv r^2+a^2-2Mr+Q^2 \\<br /> \rho^2\equiv r^2+a^2cos\theta<br />
for a black hole with parameters M,a,Q

Geodesic Equation+Hamiltonian:
<br /> \dfrac{d}{ds}\left(g_{\mu\nu}\dot{x}^\nu -\dfrac{q}{m}A_\mu\right) = \dfrac{1}{2}\partial_\mu g_{\sigma\rho}\dot{x}^\sigma\dot{x}^\rho - \dfrac{q}{m}\dot{x}^\sigma \partial_\mu A_\sigma \\<br /> H=\dfrac{1}{2}mg_{\mu\nu}\dot{x}^\mu\dot{x}^\nu=\dfrac{\kappa}{2}m=(2m)^{-1}g^{\mu\nu}\left(p_\mu+qA_\mu\right)\left(p_\nu+qA_\nu\right)<br />
for a test particle with mass m and charge q, with \kappa\equiv sgn(m^2). I've also scaled everything by m just to keep it consistent with usual notation in the non-gravitational limit.

The time and rotational symmetries immediately give the first two equations of motion:
<br /> E\equiv mg_{tt}\dot{t}+mg_{\phi t}\dot{\phi}-qA_t \\<br /> L\equiv qA_\phi - mg_{\phi\phi}\dot{\phi}-mg_{\phi t}\dot{t}<br />

The 2 other solutions to the EL equations give second derivatives of r and θ, so I'm following the steps of the sources I found (all originally from Carter,68). They all claim they are "using" the Hamilton-Jacobi equation to derive the next set of equations. However, as far as I can tell all they really do is assume that p_r is a function of only r and p_\theta is a function of only theta, and then set the two forms of H equal. The Hamilton-Jacobi equations and the S function never even need to be mentioned, but for some reason every one of them does?

Anyway, when I do this step I find:
<br /> 2mH = |m|^2 = g^{tt}\left(E+qA_t\right)^2 + g^{\phi\phi}\left(L-qA_\phi\right)^2-2g^{t\phi}\left(E+qA_t\right)\left(L-qA_\phi\right) - \dfrac{\Delta}{\rho^2} p_r^2-\dfrac{1}{\rho^2}p_\theta^2<br />

I calculated the inverse metric elements to be:
<br /> g^{\phi\phi}=\dfrac{1}{\rho^2}\left(\dfrac{a^2}{\Delta}-\dfrac{1}{sin^2\theta}\right) \\<br /> g^{t\phi}=\dfrac{a}{\Delta\rho^2}\left(2Mr-Q^2\right) \\<br /> g^{tt}=\dfrac{1}{\rho^2}\left(\dfrac{(r^2+a^2)^2}{\Delta}-a^2sin^2\theta\right)<br />
which can be plugged into the Hamiltonian expression. Multiplying both sides by \rho^2 gives you an easily separable equation of r and θ IF q=0. In this case, you can continue by setting the separated equations equal to a constant K and finding the 2 remaining EOM. However, if q≠0, the A terms add a very non-trivial dependence of both r and θ. As far as I can tell this general formula is NOT separable. This doesn't really make sense though because even Carter's original derivation made the general assumption of q≠0! Anybody know what I'm doing wrong?

*edit*
The paper I mentioned can be found at http://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.174.1559

Also, I just realized that by including the m factor everywhere I invalidated these equations for anything massless. So just assume we're dealing with a timelike massive test particle and it all works
 
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^bump, Nobodies got any insight on this?
 
Comon... 400 views and not one response? The Q=0 case is interesting, but I'm looking for the MOST general geodesic formula for a test particle near a black hole
 
Last shot at this and I'm giving up
 

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