Can Mathematics Predict Higher Levels of Complexity?

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Alexander
Define justification.

Evolution indeed happens just because laws of physics are such. Nobody "seeded" it and nothing (but natural laws) "manages" it.

Except when mankind shows up, out of a "sense of purpose" -- playing God if you will -- and throws a monkey wrench in the works.

 

[Alexander]

Mankind is a kind of apes.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Alexander
Mankind is a kind of apes.

There's very little about what mankind has done to the world which could be deemed "natural." Indeed, it's all been brought about by his "abstract" ability to reason.

 

[Alexander]

Anyway, there is no purpose of (or in) life, evolution, viruses, mankind, monkeys, air, combustion, rusting, universe by themselves.

If you define a purpose as "to be used for", then purpose of, say, air is to support airplanes or combustion (for example), or purpose of life is to serve as a food for other lives.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Alexander
Anyway, there is no purpose of (or in) life, evolution, viruses, mankind, monkeys, air, combustion, rusting, universe by themselves.

If you define a purpose as "to be used for", then purpose of, say, air is to support airplanes or combustion (for example), or purpose of life is to serve as a food for other lives.

And yet mankind "seems" to be endowed with a sense of purpose. In other words there seems to be a sense of "accountability" that coincides with his actions.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Mentat
That is not a reason. A reason is a justification
for an act. Something that occurred at random
may be justified (or, rather, what caused
it can be explained) by some sentient being
later on, but that doesn't mean that
it was done for a reason.

I'm not sure what you mean.
"Sentient being" ? I have no reason to
think that means anything more than
the laws of nature in action (for now).
Anyway, what's a justification ?

Live long and prosper.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Iacchus32
And yet mankind "seems" to be endowed
with a sense of purpose. In other words
there seems to be a sense of "accountability"
that coincides with his actions.

Sure, when I wan'na eat I know I got'ta
grab a sandwich, when I got'ta go I know
I got'ta go and when I see a pack of greens
I wan'na grab it...

No offense, but if you say something clearly as
controversial as that you should explain it
immidiately. (This is not the G. & R. forum,
here you actually need to explain everything
you say. )

Peace and long life.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

Sure, when I wan'na eat I know I got'ta
grab a sandwich, when I got'ta go I know
I got'ta go and when I see a pack of greens
I wan'na grab it...

No offense, but if you say something clearly as
controversial as that you should explain it
immidiately. (This is not the G. & R. forum,
here you actually need to explain everything
you say. )

Peace and long life.

Then what's the point (purpose) in even bothering to reply?

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Then what's the point (purpose) in even
bothering to reply?

Excuse me ?
Clearly the point is to do what I asked
that you do: explain yourself or admit
the lack of an explanation, for your claim.
Thanks.

Peace and long life.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by drag
Excuse me ?
Clearly the point is to do what I asked
that you do: explain yourself or admit
the lack of an explanation, for your claim.
Thanks.

Peace and long life.

What is the difference between making a point and expressing a purpose? What is the point to this thread? Or, what is the purpose of this thread?

Clearly there must be a "sense of purpose" in you asking me to explain myself. Otherwise, what's the point?

If we can't get past this, then why bother?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by drag
I'm not sure what you mean.
"Sentient being" ?

Well, until now, I would have assumed that you were on of those (sentient beings). What I mean is that "purpose" is synonymous to "intent" and only a living being can "intend" to do/create something. And only a sentient being can ponder something's purpose.

I have no reason to
think that means anything more than
the laws of nature in action (for now).

The laws of nature are not alive, they don't have purposes, because that would imply conscious choice.

Anyway, what's a justification ?

Perhaps I shouldn't have used that word. What I meant was that a reason can only be assigned to an act by a being that can ponder the act (or by the being that performed the act).

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Iacchus32
What is the difference between making a
point and expressing a purpose? What is
the point to this thread? Or, what is the
purpose of this thread?

Clearly there must be a "sense of purpose"
in you asking me to explain myself. Otherwise,
what's the point?

If we can't get past this, then why bother?

The purpose of this thread is to determine
the in/existence of a purpose to what we
define as life or sentient life.

But, you're right, basicly if many people here
do not wish to call serving the laws of nature
a "purpose" then what other arguments can
we produce here - observation's all we got.

I don't fully agree with that though, I think
our purpose is simply to be statisticly better
catalysts for entropy than the non-organic.

Originally posted by Mentat
...
What I mean is that "purpose" is synonymous
to "intent" and only a living being can
"intend" to do/create something. And only
a sentient being can ponder something's purpose.
...
The laws of nature are not alive, they don't
have purposes, because that would imply
conscious choice.

Hey, according to our observations so far -
niether are we. And that's my point.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by drag
Hey, according to our observations so far -
niether are we. And that's my point.

We're not what? Alive?

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Mentat
We're not what? Alive?

Yes. Unless you wish to define the
word alive as "complex cabonous molecules"
or something...
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference
for the "purpose" part in this case.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by drag
Yes. Unless you wish to define the
word alive as "complex cabonous molecules"
or something...
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference
for the "purpose" part in this case.

Live long and prosper.

Excuse me, but we fit all of the different Biological criteria for being alive, therefore we are alive.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Mentat
Excuse me, but we fit all of the different
Biological criteria for being alive, therefore
we are alive.

No offense, but this is getting funnier
by the post (in a normal conversation I would
say by the minute but this is a web forum ).
And what ARE the Biological criteria for
being alive ?

 

[RuroumiKenshin]

The biological creteria for alive:

being able to reproduce (through mitosis or meiosis)
having herediatry material

Of course, this data is gathered from the characteristics of life on earth. If there is life on other planets, then there may be other criteria. But the current information allows the aforementioned to be realiable creteria for life on earth.

 

[Veral]

What is the purpose of a Euglena? What is the purpose of a cockroach? What is the purpose of a dog? In essence, you are asking a redundant question: the purpose of a cat is to be a cat.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Veral
What is the purpose of a Euglena? What is the purpose of a cockroach? What is the purpose of a dog? In essence, you are asking a redundant question: the purpose of a cat is to be a cat.

And yet, the cat also has an impact on its environment, which is to say, the purpose of a cat is also to keep the population of rodents down.

 

[Mentat]

Again, the point needs to be brought out: A purpose is assigned by conscious beings. If a cat was not created by a conscious being, then it has no purpose, until assigned one.

Let's take a dog, for example (since they are infinitely more useful, IMO ), that has been trained to be a drug-dog. This dog's purpose is to find drugs. It has been assigned this purpose by a conscious being. However, another dog (perhaps the drug-dog's brother or sister) is used for hunting, and so it's purpose is to hunt.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by drag
No offense, but this is getting funnier
by the post (in a normal conversation I would
say by the minute but this is a web forum ).
And what ARE the Biological criteria for
being alive ?

A species of living things are supposed to be able to reproduce more of themselves.

A species of living things are supposed to be able to change to adapt to their environment.

A species of living things are supposed to be able to take in nutrients.

There are a few more criteria, that FZ+ knows better than I do. I know that not all of the criteria are excepted by all people. In fact, they are all debatable. My point is that we meet all of them, and so we are alive.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
Again, the point needs to be brought out: A purpose is assigned by conscious beings. If a cat was not created by a conscious being, then it has no purpose, until assigned one.[/color]

Let's take a dog, for example (since they are infinitely more useful, IMO ), that has been trained to be a drug-dog. This dog's purpose is to find drugs. It has been assigned this purpose by a conscious being. However, another dog (perhaps the drug-dog's brother or sister) is used for hunting, and so it's purpose is to hunt.

Cats don't need people in order to eat mice, in which case people may "expidite" this tendency for "their own" purposes.

 

[FZ+]

Originally posted by Mentat
A species of living things are supposed to be able to reproduce more of themselves.

A species of living things are supposed to be able to change to adapt to their environment.

A species of living things are supposed to be able to take in nutrients.

There are a few more criteria, that FZ+ knows better than I do. I know that not all of the criteria are excepted by all people. In fact, they are all debatable. My point is that we meet all of them, and so we are alive.

Yep. The standard bread and butter criteria are:

Nutrition
Reproduction
Sensitivity
Excretion
Movement
Growth
Respiration

Maybe some others.

But it's pretty clear we are alive, since the idea of life itself was created using us as the model. It is debatable though whether this idea of life is reflected in the real world, though... Ie. while this biological list holds true for all Earth life, all things which cover it may not neccessarily be considered by us as alive, and all things which do not cover this list may still be considered by us as alive. It's a very subjective thing, our concept of life.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Or, what is the purpose of this thread?

We should start a new thread on THAT issue!


... and honestly, I don't know anymore, although I started it!

Nevertheless this tread already developed for 5 pages.
Would that be intended that way, doesn't it follow from the way the thread proceeds, there is purpose to the thread, which is above and besides any one's individual intent's and purposes?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Cats don't need people in order to eat mice, in which case people may "expidite" this tendency for "their own" purposes.

Are cats conscious? If so, then they can make their own purposes (as I said in my previous post).

 

[Netme]

The reason why you cannot find the true purpose of existence is because you avoid to think about what may make you feel threatend or even scared of your creator which has ultimately lead you into a confused state of mind where you make up gods of good nature and religion only to ease the fact that you are resisting the human urge to find the truth.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Netme
The reason why you cannot find the true purpose of existence is because you avoid to think about what may make you feel threatend or even scared of your creator which has ultimately lead you into a confused state of mind where you make up gods of good nature and religion only to ease the fact that you are resisting the human urge to find the truth.

What if the way to find truth lies in denying that urge? Unless you claim to have found ultimate truth, you cannot deny this possibility.

Some people are so busy searching for truth that "it's as though Truth came knocking on your door, and you said 'go away, I'm looking for Truth', and so it goes away..." (from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance).

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Mentat
A species of living things are supposed to be
able to change to adapt to their environment.

A species of living things are supposed
to be able to take in nutrients.

And so on and so on - physical processes,
groups of molecules taking the path
of the laws of nature. But, what's the
difference in the "purpose" part ?
Either you get to the super-natural anti-science
and hence anti-observation and anti-proof part
or just give up this pointless line of argument.
You only have these two separate ways to go
and explain yourself when you say "purpose".
Being vague won't solve the issue.

Peace and long life.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by Mentat
Are cats conscious? If so, then they can make their own purposes (as I said in my previous post).

To some extent they are at least. But are they consciouss about their own purposes?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by drag
And so on and so on - physical processes,
groups of molecules taking the path
of the laws of nature. But, what's the
difference in the "purpose" part ?

How about the fact that unconscious entities cannot make purposes? How about the fact that you must be alive to be conscious?

Either you get to the super-natural anti-science
and hence anti-observation and anti-proof part
or just give up this pointless line of argument.
You only have these two separate ways to go
and explain yourself when you say "purpose".
Being vague won't solve the issue.

I wasn't trying to be vague, I thought I was rather clear. It's pretty obvious that I was saying you must be conscious to assign purpose to anything. This is a readily demonstrable, and easily observable, fact.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by heusdens
To some extent they are at least. But are they consciouss about their own purposes?

Yes, otherwise they couldn't assign the purpose at all.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by Mentat
Yes, otherwise they couldn't assign the purpose at all.

The fact that we see purpose in a cat's behaviour does not mean the cat itself must be conscious of that.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Mentat
I wasn't trying to be vague, I thought I was
rather clear. It's pretty obvious that I was
saying you must be conscious to assign purpose
to anything. This is a readily demonstrable,
and easily observable, fact.

No, you ARE being vague. According to
science you are not conscious - it's an
illusion. What you "experience" is the direct
result of physical laws and "you" have no
ability to really define purposes or anything
else for yourself.

Saying I CAN this or that means that you deny
the currently most likely explanation that
science has for this. So, there's really no
purpose to speak about but the laws of nature.
Unless of course you do claim the currently
"super-natural" stuff.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Alexander]

pur·pose ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pûrps), n.

1. The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal: "And ever those, who would enjoyment gain/Must find it in the purpose they pursue" (Sarah Josepha Hale).

2. A result or effect that is intended or desired; an intention. See Synonyms at intention.

3. Determination; resolution: He was a man of purpose.

4. The matter at hand; the point at issue.


Idioms:

on purpose
Intentionally; deliberately.

to good purpose
With good results.

to little/no purpose
With few or no results.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by heusdens
The fact that we see purpose in a cat's behaviour does not mean the cat itself must be conscious of that.

That's the point: The cat's behavior has no purpose, until some conscious entity (whether it's the cat, some human, or any other conscious entity) assigns it.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

No, you ARE being vague. According to
science you are not conscious - it's an
illusion. What you "experience" is the direct
result of physical laws and "you" have no
ability to really define purposes or anything
else for yourself.

What theory dictates this?

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Mentat
What theory dictates this?

Physics, Chemistry and Biology.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by drag
Physics, Chemistry and Biology.

Since when do any of these Sciences dictate that consciousness cannot be produced by a complex relationship of neurons?

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by drag
Physics, Chemistry and Biology.

And what about sociology, economy and psychology?

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Mentat
Since when do any of these Sciences dictate
that consciousness cannot be produced by a
complex relationship of neurons?

Since the time that they were all based on
physical laws which in turn do not support
the existence of a consciouss - capable
of free and independent thought being.
If you were to truelly think freely then
you can not possibly agree that you still
fully abide the laws of nature at the same
time. According to modern science consciousness
is an illusion and hence purpose is also an
illusion of its dellusional abstract thought.

Originally posted by Mentat
And what about sociology, economy and psychology?

The reason these exist and indeed the separation
exists between the original 3 sciences which
I mentioned is the complexity of our Universe.
If we could explain sociology from direct
physical systems using just the laws of
physics then we wouldn't need it at all.
However, the complexity is so great that
this does not appear to be possible at a high
level even within the next few centuries from now.

So, since we are not able to make the
connections for now because they are so
complex, we have many sciences each dealing
with different levels and types of patterns
in the Universe. You can also see that the
higher the complexity of the systems a theory
studies the less certain its laws become and
more and more statistics is being used as
the basis of the theory without clear formulated
laws.

There does not, according to modern science,
appear to be any fundumental reason why
these sciences should be separate or independent
besides the complexity issue I mentioned above.
The separation is made only due to compromise
between the usefullness and the practical
ability to make it of a scientiic field as well
as our historical semantic division of the
Universe into the relevant "parts". That's why
it's all called science - all of the observed...

Live long and prosper.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

Since the time that they were all based on
physical laws which in turn do not support
the existence of a consciouss - capable
of free and independent thought being.
If you were to truelly think freely then
you can not possibly agree that you still
fully abide the laws of nature at the same
time. According to modern science consciousness
is an illusion and hence purpose is also an
illusion of its dellusional abstract thought.

There has been a time, physics was to be thought as totally deterministic , but modern science has clearly discovered this to be not the case.

Hence your argument fails, and fails only cause you imply wrong conclusions out of physical laws.

Your argument comes down to that the consciousness of human beings, since they are made of the same "stuff" as everything (protons, neutrons, electrons) could not excercise "free will" unless also protons, neutrons and electrons have that property.

This however is a nonsense statement, cause you miss the point that between the layers of atoms and that of a brain, there are many levels of complexity, each with their own properties.

You can not reduce the working of a brain downto atoms.
It doesn't work that way.

The reason these exist and indeed the separation
exists between the original 3 sciences which
I mentioned is the complexity of our Universe.
If we could explain sociology from direct
physical systems using just the laws of
physics then we wouldn't need it at all.
However, the complexity is so great that
this does not appear to be possible at a high
level even within the next few centuries from now.

Like stated before the level of complexity of societal behaviour are not reducible to that of atoms. That is the reason why psychology and sociology are separate disciplines in science. Nevertheless sociology come up with their own set of 'laws' for describing the events in their field of knowledge.

So, since we are not able to make the
connections for now because they are so
complex, we have many sciences each dealing
with different levels and types of patterns
in the Universe. You can also see that the
higher the complexity of the systems a theory
studies the less certain its laws become and
more and more statistics is being used as
the basis of the theory without clear formulated
laws.

There does not, according to modern science,
appear to be any fundumental reason why
these sciences should be separate or independent
besides the complexity issue I mentioned above.
The separation is made only due to compromise
between the usefullness and the practical
ability to make it of a scientiic field as well
as our historical semantic division of the
Universe into the relevant "parts". That's why
it's all called science - all of the observed...

Live long and prosper.

It should be stated that the laws describing reality are ultimately more complex then the large scale behaviour of matter. Even though all properties and laws we can ever witness, are deduced somehow from physical behaviour.

Your argue from the point of total determinism, which is a point of view that has since long be rejected by modern physics.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by heusdens
There has been a time, physics was to be thought as totally deterministic , but modern science has clearly discovered this to be not the case.

Hence your argument fails, and fails only cause you imply wrong conclusions out of physical laws.

Your argument comes down to that the consciousness of human beings, since they are made of the same "stuff" as everything (protons, neutrons, electrons) could not excercise "free will" unless also protons, neutrons and electrons have that property.

This however is a nonsense statement, cause you miss the point that between the layers of atoms and that of a brain, there are many levels of complexity, each with their own properties.

You can not reduce the working of a brain downto atoms.
It doesn't work that way.




Like stated before the level of complexity of societal behaviour are not reducible to that of atoms. That is the reason why psychology and sociology are separate disciplines in science. Nevertheless sociology come up with their own set of 'laws' for describing the events in their field of knowledge.



It should be stated that the laws describing reality are ultimately more complex then the large scale behaviour of matter. Even though all properties and laws we can ever witness, are deduced somehow from physical behaviour.

Your argue from the point of total determinism, which is a point of view that has since long be rejected by modern physics.

Well, heusdens summed it up rather nicely. I would add that one specific aspect of modern physics, that allows for free will and consciousness, is Quantum Uncertainty. I know you know at least some of the Uncertainty Principle, and so it should be no difficult task for you to see that it (by postulating indeterminacy) allows for "choices", "free will", and consciousness.

 

[Alexander]

Drag is correct, consciouseness does not exist. It can not even be defined. And what can't be defined simply does not exist. There is simply no object (or subject) to exist yet.

God(s), soul(s), angels, devils, ghosts, flogiston, vital matter, spirit(s), free will, etc - are from the same category of inexisting objects/subjects.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Alexander
Drag is correct, consciouseness does not exist.
It can not even be defined. And what can't be
defined simply does not exist. There is simply
no object (or subject) to exist yet.

From the mouth of scientists...

heusdens, I have no idea what you mean by
trying to impose such a separation within
science. Care to explain yourself, please ?

Mentat, QM is not "Allice's wonderland", while it
does include partial uncertainty it FULLY predicts
it - so no ferry tales beyond that, I'm afraid.

Peace and long life.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by drag
Since the time that they were all based on
physical laws which in turn do not support
the existence of a consciouss - capable
of free and independent thought being.
If you were to truelly think freely then
you can not possibly agree that you still
fully abide the laws of nature at the same
time. According to modern science consciousness
is an illusion and hence purpose is also an
illusion of its dellusional abstract thought.

Yeah. Well and not only can , from the point of view of physical law , consciousness not exist, but neither could the Big Bang exist.

So in fact, neither me nor you or anything can exist at all, since it is not supported by physcial law.

So, as seen from physical law, nothing whatsoever exists.

All agree?

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by drag
heusdens, I have no idea what you mean by
trying to impose such a separation within
science. Care to explain yourself, please ?

Which seperation?

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by drag
If you were to truelly think freely then
you can not possibly agree that you still
fully abide the laws of nature at the same
time.

1. The laws of nature, are what we observe them to be. Physcis laws are inventions of human minds, which approximate observed reality.
Physics laws don't dictate reality, but reality dictates our (observation) of reality. If our physics laws don't match reality as it is, then it's not reality that is in error, but our perception thereof (the physical laws/models/theories).

2. You seem to think here in absolute terms of freedom. But a lot of our behaviour and thinking is determined by:
- the way our brain as a material organ and in connection to our body, works. The brain, while usefull also for abstract thinking, in the first place serves as a control organ, to serve our body for survival. This is a determination from our physical nature.
- everybody has preconceived ideas about reality. From education, parents, school, society. We can become consciouss of that, and learn to overcome our preconceived and probably incorrect ideas.

3. I can very well think that I, while have all sorts of limitations and determinations, that form me and my thinking, of which I can not get rid of in total, still I experience some or other form of freedom. But most freedom comes from hard work, and consciously working on overcoming limitations and determinations, aquiring knowledge, etc. And at the same time, I can perfectly deal with the fact that apples fall to the ground according to physical laws, and not because they 'intend' to.

According to modern science consciousness
is an illusion and hence purpose is also an
illusion of its dellusional abstract thought.

Then modern science is clearly in error, but I think you are just referring to 'some' modern science, which maybe claim that.

Our consciousness, is our selfdetermination, and our distinction with and towards the unconsciouss material world. Science explains this distinction as the outcome of a long and very complex historical, physical, chemical and biological process, called evolution.

 

[drag]

Greetings heusdens !

Originally posted by heusdens
So, as seen from physical law, nothing whatsoever exists.

Correction, these are slightly different things
you're talking about. It is true that science
can not explain the basic ellements it observes
and/or theorizes. However, the difference is that
real consciousness according to the definition
I personally attribute to it is not supposed
to be explained at ALL while the other basic
stuff may possibly have an explanation.

Originally posted by heusdens
Which seperation?

This separation:

Originally posted by heusdens
Like stated before the level of complexity of
societal behaviour are not reducible to that
of atoms. That is the reason why psychology
and sociology are separate disciplines in
science. Nevertheless sociology come up with
their own set of 'laws' for describing the
events in their field of knowledge.
...
It should be stated that the laws describing
reality are ultimately more complex then the
large scale behaviour of matter. Even though
all properties and laws we can ever witness,
are deduced somehow from physical behaviour.

Your argue from the point of total determinism,
which is a point of view that has since long
be rejected by modern physics.

I really do not understand you here.

Originally posted by heusdens
1. The laws of nature, are what we observe them
to be. Physcis laws are inventions of human minds,
which approximate observed reality. Physics laws
don't dictate reality, but reality dictates our
(observation) of reality. If our physics laws
don't match reality as it is, then it's not
reality that is in error, but our perception
thereof (the physical laws/models/theories).

Indeed. So, have you proved the theory
of consciousness already (and defined it first) ?

Originally posted by heusdens
2. You seem to think here in absolute terms of
freedom. But a lot of our behaviour and thinking
is determined by: - the way our brain as a material
organ and in connection to our body, works. The
brain, while usefull also for abstract thinking,
in the first place serves as a control organ, to
serve our body for survival. This is a determination
from our physical nature. - everybody has
preconceived ideas about reality. From education,
parents, school, society. We can become consciouss
of that, and learn to overcome our preconceived and
probably incorrect ideas.

I'm not sure how this is relevant. I do
not see where I said anything's wrong with
the above.

Originally posted by heusdens
3. I can very well think that I, while have all
sorts of limitations and determinations, that
form me and my thinking, of which I can not get
rid of in total, still I experience some or other
form of freedom. But most freedom comes from hard
work, and consciously working on overcoming
limitations and determinations, aquiring knowledge,
etc. And at the same time, I can perfectly deal with
the fact that apples fall to the ground according to
physical laws, and not because they 'intend' to.

I realize how this could be confusing and in fact
see that my own statement you quoted also
appears paradoxical. However, according to
science, for now, what you need to do
is reverse roles - your free thoughts are the
result of physical laws in action - not the
other way around. This way you also eliminate
the apparent contradiction (although some
undefinable problem may still seem to remain -
what you consider your consciousness/free will).

Originally posted by heusdens
Then modern science is clearly in error, but I
think you are just referring to 'some' modern
science, which maybe claim that.

Our consciousness, is our selfdetermination, and
our distinction with and towards the unconsciouss
material world. Science explains this distinction
as the outcome of a long and very complex
historical, physical, chemical and biological
process, called evolution.

No offense but that is clearly wrong and
clearly nonesense. Modern science accepts
probablistic physical laws. Modern science
does not accept nor even define consciousness,
nor does it recognize any fundumental difference
between us and non-living stuff.

In conclusion, again - this purpose stuff is
pointless in my opinion. Unless of course
you want a more "shallow" - just sociology
level discussion.

Peace and long life.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by drag
Greetings heusdens !

Correction, these are slightly different things
you're talking about. It is true that science
can not explain the basic ellements it observes
and/or theorizes. However, the difference is that
real consciousness according to the definition
I personally attribute to it is not supposed
to be explained at ALL while the other basic
stuff may possibly have an explanation.

I was just stating these things, cause your line of reasoning is clearly in error.

Your arguments goes like: "Science can not explain X.. Therefore X does not exist".

It is obviously wrong. When science can not explain consciousness, this does not mean that consciousness does not exist, since we still observe and state people to have consciousness, it just means we have not evolved a complete and scientific theory on consciousness yet.

This separation:

I really do not understand you here.

Indeed. So, have you proved the theory
of consciousness already (and defined it first) ?

I'm not sure how this is relevant. I do
not see where I said anything's wrong with
the above.

I realize how this could be confusing and in fact
see that my own statement you quoted also
appears paradoxical. However, according to
science, for now, what you need to do
is reverse roles - your free thoughts are the
result of physical laws in action - not the
other way around. This way you also eliminate
the apparent contradiction (although some
undefinable problem may still seem to remain -
what you consider your consciousness/free will).

No offense but that is clearly wrong and
clearly nonesense. Modern science accepts
probablistic physical laws. Modern science
does not accept nor even define consciousness,
nor does it recognize any fundumental difference
between us and non-living stuff.

In conclusion, again - this purpose stuff is
pointless in my opinion. Unless of course
you want a more "shallow" - just sociology
level discussion.

You limit modern science to only the physics theory?

That is not a definition of modern science, and modern science clearly recognizes that humans have consciousness, and also animals to some extent.
And even if there is a separation between lifeless and living matter, this does not mean that living matter is not determined by the same laws as ordinary matter, but just means there are qualitative differences. Organisms have a level of complexity in which they can interact with the environment in order to sustain themselves and the species. This is a qualitative difference with ordinary - lifeless - matter.

Modern science has no problem in explaining anything material, so why should consciousness be left out from that?

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by heusdens
I was just stating these things, cause your
line of reasoning is clearly in error.

Your arguments goes like: "Science can not
explain X.. Therefore X does not exist".

It is obviously wrong. When science can not
explain consciousness, this does not mean
that consciousness does not exist, since we
still observe and state people to have
consciousness, it just means we have not
evolved a complete and scientific theory on
consciousness yet.

I see no error in my line of reasoning.

First of all consciousness is NOT a scientific
assumption attributed to/theorized from observation,
and thus also has no clear definition.

Second, there is a fundumental quality to
the concept of consciousness (even in its
undefined state) that if an explanation, along
the lines of any reasoning system included in
science so far, is found - it will NOT be in fact
an explanation of consciousness. That is,
consciosness, as I see it, implies the lack
of any laws to explain it - at least in the
conventional meaning of the term explanation
as far as we understand it for now.

Originally posted by heusdens
You limit modern science to only the physics theory?

Yes, physics is the corner-stone of science -
observation. The other sciences are based
upon it's laws and indeed exist only due to
our semantic separation (like chemistry dealing
with atoms and anything larger) on the one hand
and the limmits of practical use due to our
limmitation in fully deciphering the complexity
of observation down to the basic level of physics
(like sociology). The so-called "laws" of sociology
or biology or even chemistry are eventually
the result of basic physical laws and are only
necessary for now because we find it difficult
to simplify the systems appropriatly. An additional
point to notice is that the "development" of
physical laws in complex systems is the
development of very complex patterns and thus
our ability of fully simplified explanation is
limmited further, for now and for current systems
in these additional sciences, by our limmited
knowledge of the theory of patterns - mathematics
which, so far, appears to be capable of discribing
all of the patterns we observe.

Originally posted by heusdens
That is not a definition of modern science, and
modern science clearly recognizes that humans
have consciousness, and also animals to some extent.

If you're talking about sciences like
sociology or psychology then they are
nothing more than rough statistical
approximations of the operation of complex
physical systems. They do NOT assume consciosness
exists, but they might use it as an "assisting
temporary assumption" to help explain
the great amounts of missing knowledge they
statisticly constitute. That is, despite the
complexity of such systems some general
correlation between basic physical laws
and the behavior of these complex systems
does exist(I "want" to eat because I need
energy from molecular interactions) - but since
it's so complex and as yet not clearly defined
and explained some may choose to veil this with
this "assisting temporary assumption" - since
they need a word for it (perhpaps such people
should've chosen a different word). There is
nothing "clear" in such "definitions".

Originally posted by heusdens
Modern science has no problem in explaining
anything material, so why should consciousness
be left out from that?

Hmm... I'd think you know my answer to that...
First of all, I have no idea what you mean
by "material", I just know - "observed".
Second, consciousness does not appear to be observed.

Live long and prosper.