News Can Oakland Survive a Disaster Without Federal Aid?

[edward]

I can't imagine that not one of the responsible parties stopped to think that a hurricane, even a category three hurricane, would take down cell phone towers.

 

[SOS2008]

Good article in newsweek: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287434/

Enjoy.

Aside from many other relevant points made, I noticed this paragraph:

(When the AWOL officers began trickling back to work last week, attracted in part by the promise of five expense-paid days in Las Vegas for all New Orleans cops, Hosli told them, "You've got your own demons to live with. I'm not going to judge you.")

I'm thinking, let them come back to work--it will take too much time to replace them, but without pay for the days they were missing. I'm certainly not thinking, let's send them on a tax-paid vacation to Las Vegas. They can't be serious!

 

[SOS2008]

I can't imagine that not one of the responsible parties stopped to think that a hurricane, even a category three hurricane, would take down cell phone towers.

True. But how far away--Baton Rouge too? Even so, when calls were placed, officials underwent transfers, vague responses, and a sheriff was told to send an email.

 

[Astronuc]

It occurs to me that they could have had buses on standby in Lafayette and Baton Rouge.

All the available buses in New Orleans should have been brought to the Superdome, and parked on the overpasses nearby so as not to get flooded.

They had expected a Cat 4 storm, at high tide, so there was a chance that the levees would have been overtopped (the water would have flown over the levees and flooded the city).

Clearly the responsible authorites at the City and State level had not worked out contingencies, and that was not the fault of the federal government.

On the other hand, someone should have been watching the levees for signs of failure, or at least there should have been some monitoring system of the integrity. Was that strictly some entity in the federal government, such as the Army Corps of Engineers?

 

[TRCSF]

It occurs to me that they could have had buses on standby in Lafayette and Baton Rouge.

All the available buses in New Orleans should have been brought to the Superdome, and parked on the overpasses nearby so as not to get flooded.

They had expected a Cat 4 storm, at high tide, so there was a chance that the levees would have been overtopped (the water would have flown over the levees and flooded the city).

Clearly the responsible authorites at the City and State level had not worked out contingencies, and that was not the fault of the federal government.

On the other hand, someone should have been watching the levees for signs of failure, or at least there should have been some monitoring system of the integrity. Was that strictly some entity in the federal government, such as the Army Corps of Engineers?

The city of New Orleans did use buses to evacuate, both out of New Orleans and within the city to the Superdome. They only stopped because Katrina was getting too close and the evacuation routes were getting clogged. Parking buses on an overpass is not a good way to clear up evacuations routes.

80% of New Orleans citizens were evacuated. That's a very large rate. FEMA was only predicting 60%.

The bus issue is a ruse.

 

[Astronuc]

80% of New Orleans citizens were evacuated. That's a very large rate. FEMA was only predicting 60%.

That left 20% or about 80,000 - 100,000 people left. They needed to be evacuated. Where were the buses then. The City was waiting for FEMA, and FEMA was ?

The bus issue is a ruse.

I saw quite a few flooded buses in New Orleans, well away from the Superdome. So something wasn't right.

Several of my friends had evacuated by Saturday, and I believe most of the 80% had done so by Sunday morning. That left Sunday through that late afternoon to get out. Katrina's eye came over Plaquemines Parish at the mouth of the Mississippi about 0400 Monday. Certainly no one was going to leave then.

I would like to know what happened on Tuesday morning and thereafter.

 

[BobG]

It occurs to me that they could have had buses on standby in Lafayette and Baton Rouge.

All the available buses in New Orleans should have been brought to the Superdome, and parked on the overpasses nearby so as not to get flooded.

They had expected a Cat 4 storm, at high tide, so there was a chance that the levees would have been overtopped (the water would have flown over the levees and flooded the city).

Clearly the responsible authorites at the City and State level had not worked out contingencies, and that was not the fault of the federal government.

On the other hand, someone should have been watching the levees for signs of failure, or at least there should have been some monitoring system of the integrity. Was that strictly some entity in the federal government, such as the Army Corps of Engineers?

The city's buses should have been moved from low ground, but surely not parked on the overpasses. No telling where they'd be after the hurricane and bad news for anyone that has a bus landing on them. Their buses should have been stored on high ground in a protected parking deck - i.e. Money!

Actually, even if not permanently stored in a parking deck, the city could have commandeered a parking deck for the short term - during a mandatory evacuation, shouldn't most of the cars be gone from the parking deck? Or does the parking business actually pick up as people decide that's a good time to store their second or third cars?

 

[SOS2008]

The city's buses should have been moved from low ground, but surely not parked on the overpasses. No telling where they'd be after the hurricane and bad news for anyone that has a bus landing on them. Their buses should have been stored on high ground in a protected parking deck - i.e. Money!

Actually, even if not permanently stored in a parking deck, the city could have commandeered a parking deck for the short term - during a mandatory evacuation, shouldn't most of the cars be gone from the parking deck? Or does the parking business actually pick up as people decide that's a good time to store their second or third cars?

I heard the problem was getting bus drivers to drive the buses. Sen. Landrieu stated that Mayor Nagin had a hard time getting these people to work on a sunny day, let alone in the face of a hurricane. Ouch, that may be a little harsh--In all fairness bus drivers are not trained for crisis (even police who are trained "to protect and to serve" couldn't handle their jobs) and given a choice to evacuate as ordered, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[TRCSF]

I heard the problem was getting bus drivers to drive the buses. Sen. Landrieu stated that Mayor Nagin had a hard time getting these people to work on a sunny day, let alone in the face of a hurricane. Ouch, that may be a little harsh--In all fairness bus drivers are not trained for crisis (even police who are trained "to protect and to serve" couldn't handle their jobs) and given a choice to evacuate as ordered, it wouldn't surprise me.

Actually, she was talking about any given mayor, not Nagin specificially. But yeah, the buses were being used up until the bus drivers had to evacuate themselves. It's not like bus drivers are first responders.

 

[2CentsWorth]

I just saw this and nearly soiled myself:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9324891/

Bush takes blame for flaws in Katrina response
President heading to Louisiana on Thursday for primetime speech

"Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," Bush said at joint White House news conference with the president of Iraq.

"To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," Bush said.

Though the excerpts quoted above are a bit parsed, I suspect they know what an investigation will find.

 

[pattylou]

My God. Has hell frozen over?

 

[pattylou]

Defending the heroes, not the process
As for blunders in the federal response, "I'm not going to defend the process going in," Bush said. "I am going to defend the people saving lives."

=smirk= I can't wait to see him defend Gore, in that case.

 

[TRCSF]

Heh. "To the extent..."

More bull.

 

[Astronuc]

But yeah, the buses were being used up until the bus drivers had to evacuate themselves. It's not like bus drivers are first responders.

And that is a problem with the city's emergency preparedness plan that the city and state should have addressed. When the only way to evacuate a population is by bus, then someone better be sure those buses are there!

The buses perhaps got people to the Superdome, but when that had to be evacuated, then what? What was the plan? That is where the city and state fell short.

FEMA should have been monitoring that, and when something went wrong, they should have been able to step in.

"Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," Bush said at joint White House news conference with the president of Iraq.

"To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," Bush said.

For once Bush has impressed me. I really hope he is sincere and follows through.

 

[TRCSF]

The buses perhaps got people to the Superdome, but when that had to be evacuated, then what? What was the plan? That is where the city and state fell short.

FEMA should have been monitoring that, and when something went wrong, they should have been able to step in.

After the storm New Orleans was essentially destroyed. It's completely unrealistic to think that the city government was in any position to get people out of town at that point.

That's exactly what FEMA is for.

 

[faust9]

It seems the paths of evacuation were frought with shotgun wielding sheriffs: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.bridge/index.html

Make of it what you will.

 

[2CentsWorth]

It seems the paths of evacuation were frought with shotgun wielding sheriffs: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.bridge/index.html

Make of it what you will.

To me it is definitely of a discriminatory nature. It sounds like there was fear that looting would spread, fair enough, but it was mostly women and children and some disabled folks (according to the person interviewed). I can't believe there wasn't a school or some place the people could have been allowed to go (with a water fountain or vending machines?).

 

[loseyourname]

It seems the paths of evacuation were frought with shotgun wielding sheriffs: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.bridge/index.html

Make of it what you will.

Racism is probably part of this, but this is also bad communication between municipalities. A mayor shouldn't tell his people to evacuate to the next city over without first consulting that city's officials to make sure they'll be welcome.

 

[Astronuc]

After the storm New Orleans was essentially destroyed. It's completely unrealistic to think that the city government was in any position to get people out of town at that point.

Not quite - not until the levees started failing and the flooding began.

That's exactly what FEMA is for.

Perhaps. This is a grey area. FEMA is supposed to 'support' local and state efforts, and state governments (or their emergency preparedness programs/offices) are supposed to coordinate local efforts. At least that is what I have gleaned form other states' emergency plans - the states take the responsibility within their borders.

It looks like the emergency program failed in Louisiana and New Orleans.

However there is this (from http://www.vaemergency.com/library/plans/coveop/eopvol1/appendix3.pdf )

Basic Plan, Appendix 3
THE FEDERAL RESPONSE PLAN AND
THE (FEMA) REGIONAL RESPONSE PLAN
THE FEDERAL RESPONSE PLAN

A. Following Hurricanes Hugo and Andrew, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) recognized the need for a more flexible and rapid federal response to supplement state and local efforts during a catastrophic disaster. Until then, the federal role following a disaster had been largely limited to financial assistance during the recovery period.

B. Recognizing that state and local governments are overwhelmed by a catastrophic disaster and that the Federal Government should be more proactive in such situations, FEMA developed and published the Federal Response Plan (FRP) in 1992. The plan describes how FEMA would coordinate with 27 federal departments and agencies (including the American
Red Cross) to assist state and local governments during the emergency response period. The Federal Response Plan (FRP) was updated in April 1999.

C. The Director of FEMA has the authority to activate part or all of the Federal Response Plan. After consultation with the Director of FEMA, the FEMA Regional Director may also activate part or all of the plan. A presidential disaster declaration will also, of course, permit implementation of the plan. Operations are to be carried out under the authority of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster and Emergency Assistance Act (Public Law 93-288, as
amended).

Virginia Emergency Operations Plan, Basic Plan Page 64 of 67

So, the question is, did Michael Brown have any clue about the Federal Response Plan and/or the Regional Response Plan?

Then - What about the regional FEMA director?

And - what about the Louisiana governor, Louisiana's director of emergency preparedness (or equivalent), and New Orleans mayor and its director of emergency preparedness.

All levels of government were involved here.

 

[Astronuc]

Racism is probably part of this, but this is also bad communication between municipalities. A mayor shouldn't tell his people to evacuate to the next city over without first consulting that city's officials to make sure they'll be welcome.

Mission statement:

The Office of Emergency Preparedness is responsible for the response and coordination of those actions needed to protect the lives and property of its citizens from natural or man-made disasters as well as emergency planning for the City of New Orleans.

Our primary responsibility is to advise the Mayor, the City Council and Chief Administrative Officer regarding emergency preparedness activities and operations.We coordinate all city departments and allied state and federal agencies which respond to city-wide disasters and emergencies through the development and constant updating of an integrated multi-hazard plan.

All requests for federal disaster assistance and federal funding subsequent to disaster declarations are also made through this office.

Our authority is defined by the Louisiana Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act of 1993, Chapter 6 Section 709, Paragraph B:

"Each Parish shall maintain a disaster agency which, except as otherwise provided under this act, has jurisdiction over and serves the entire parish."

from http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=9

Well, here is one guy we have not heard from - Major General Bennett C. Landreneau, who "is the Adjutant General for Louisiana. He is responsible for the deployment and coordination of programs, policies and plans affecting the more than 14,000 members of the Louisiana Army and Air National Guard. He is also the Director of the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness." I wonder if he was in Iraq?

http://www.loep.state.la.us/agencyrelated/administratorsIndex.htm

Deputy Director
Emergency Preparedness
Colonel Michael L. Brown

Deputy Director
Homeland Security
Colonel (Retired) Jadwin V. Mayeaux, Jr.

I think I saw a picture of these guys with Mayor Nagin and the Governor trying deal with the flood and evacuation.

 

[Skyhunter]

Here is a link covering the ecological damage to the bayou.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/12/n...2b1bd67f9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

 

[Townsend]

Did anyone catch the OPRAH show?

This video shows dead bodies so be warned...

http://www.thevoiz.com/media/oprahkatrina.mov

 

[loseyourname]

Astronuc, I'm not sure how you're responding to me with that quote. I apologize if I'm being dense; I'm really tired.

 

[Astronuc]

Astronuc, I'm not sure how you're responding to me with that quote. I apologize if I'm being dense; I'm really tired.

I was agreeing with your points, particularly the point on communication between municipalities, and adding something from the plan. Somewhere, the immediate needs of New Orleans was not conveyed to other places like Baton Rouge, Alexandria, Lafayette, and FEMA.

The state of Lousiana should have been coordinating the evacuation with support from FEMA. Some states have developed compacts for mutual support in the face of a disaster like Katrina. I need to find an example.

Thousands of people were evacuated to Houston, but that seems to have been an afterthought. Prior to Katrina, I don't believe Houston had any interaction with New Orleans regarding the use of the Astrodome to warehouse displaced persons.

And it would appear that the New Orleans emergency plan did not assume that parts of the city would be uninhabitable for months.

 

[BobG]

It's probably not fair to focus in New Orleans pre-disaster planning without something to compare it to.

What's the plan for evacuating the Northwest coastal towns in the event of a tsunami warning? How about Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York City - do they have evacuation plans for certain disasters?

Or, probably more applicable considering the geographic proximity, how would Houston be evacuated if it were in the path of Cat 5 hurricane?

Chernobyl has shown that the effects of a nuclear disaster can linger for years. What's the plan for evacuating a city due to a disaster at a nuclear plant and do their plans account for the fact that their city will be uninhabitable for a prolonged period of time?

 

[Art]

What's the plan for evacuating the Northwest coastal towns in the event of a tsunami warning? How about Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York City - do they have evacuation plans for certain disasters?

If they don't already have an emergency evacuation plan then New York City should develop one quickly. There is an outcrop of rock measuring several square miles and weighing 500,000,000,000 tons hanging off an island in the Canaries (a highly volatile volcanic region) which, if it falls, experts believe will cause a tsunami 300 feet high to hit the east coast of America around 8 hours later.

But huge landslides and the mega-tsunami that they cause are extremely rare - the last one happened 4,000 years ago on the island of Réunion. The growing concern is that the ideal conditions for just such a landslide - and consequent mega-tsunami - now exist on the island of La Palma in the Canaries. In 1949 the southern volcano on the island erupted. During the eruption an enormous crack appeared across one side of the volcano, as the western half slipped a few metres towards the Atlantic before stopping in its tracks. Although the volcano presents no danger while it is quiescent, scientists believe the western flank will give way completely during some future eruption on the summit of the volcano.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/mega_tsunami.shtml

 

[Astronuc]

It's probably not fair to focus in New Orleans pre-disaster planning without something to compare it to.

What's the plan for evacuating the Northwest coastal towns in the event of a tsunami warning? How about Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York City - do they have evacuation plans for certain disasters?

It's not fair to single out NO for criticism. I suspect all major cities are now reflecting upon their own emergency plans.

Or, probably more applicable considering the geographic proximity, how would Houston be evacuated if it were in the path of Cat 5 hurricane?

Apparently there have already been discussion in Houston about that - beginning a few days after Katrina. Had Katrina gone into Houston my parents, my sister's family and my sister-in-law's family would most likely have had to evacuate. But they have a place to go northwest of the city. Much of Houston would have flooded - again! They had some significant floods a few years ago. Cities east and southeast of Houston, e.g. Pasadena and Galveston, would have been pretty much wiped out.

The bullet got close to Houston, but it took out New Orleans instead.

Chernobyl has shown that the effects of a nuclear disaster can linger for years. What's the plan for evacuating a city due to a disaster at a nuclear plant and do their plans account for the fact that their city will be uninhabitable for a prolonged period of time?

Emergency planners near nuclear plants are supposed to have evacuation plans if the utility declares an emergency. They may or may not work well.

 

[BobG]

It's not fair to single out NO for criticism. I suspect all major cities are now reflecting upon their own emergency plans.
Apparently there have already been discussion in Houston about that - beginning a few days after Katrina. Had Katrina gone into Houston my parents, my sister's family and my sister-in-law's family would most likely have had to evacuate. But they have a place to go northwest of the city. Much of Houston would have flooded - again! They had some significant floods a few years ago. Cities east and southeast of Houston, e.g. Pasadena and Galveston, would have been pretty much wiped out.

The bullet got close to Houston, but it took out New Orleans instead.

Emergency planners near nuclear plants are supposed to have evacuation plans if the utility declares an emergency. They may or may not work well.

None of them get tested. The cost would be exhorbitant. Instead, officials run through tabletop exercises. These make sure officials are familiar with evacuation plans - they don't test whether the plan actually works. They don't always even reveal whether the officials believe the plan might work. "This plan can't possibly work!" - "You got a better one?" - silence.

Biggest evacuations in history:

300,000 soldiers were evacuated from Dunkirk in 10 days (this one's pretty famous)

600,000 were evacuated from a flood in China, with 40,000 evacuated in one day alone.

About 600,000 were evacuated from cities in Texas for Hurricane Carla. There wound up being about 46 deaths, but the hurricane also wounding up missing major cities. (Trivia: Hurricane Carla was Dan Rather's big debut, resulting in him moving from a local TV station to the CBS network).

145,000 evacuated for Three-Mile Island. This was very chaotic with a large number evacuating just because it was unclear to the public exactly who should be evacuating.

116,000 evacuated for Chernobyl with 220,000 eventually relocated permanently.

What's considered the most successful large scale evacuation in the US? The evacuation from Manhattan on 9/11/2001. About 300,000 to 1,000,000 were evacuated in somewhere between one to four days. The fact that no one can give an 'official' number and the estimates varied so widely show how organized a successful evacuation is. Most were evacuated by ferry.

3,000,000 people were evacuated from British cities in 4 days at the beginning of World War II. Virtually all of the evacuees were teachers and children. Great Britain was anticipating an intense bombing campaign from the Germans. This is the largest, most successful evacuation I've seen, but it was well planned in advance in anticipation of Germany going to war with Great Britain.

4,000,000 people evacuated the Southeast coast for Hurricane Floyd. Good thing Hurricane Floyd stalled, changed direction, and never reached land - thousands would have died in their cars as they sat in exposed in traffic. The poor unable to evacuate would have been the lucky ones.

Here's an article about evacuations: http://www.ieminc.com/Whats_New/Evacuations_reprint.pdf

 

[SOS2008]

Last night was a report on the problem of mold. After structures were exposed to toxic, standing water for such a long time, wood is rotted and mold is spreading rapidly on everything including furnishings and personal items. The cost to deal with this is very high--often more then the home is worth?

 

[Astronuc]

Last night was a report on the problem of mold. After structures were exposed to toxic, standing water for such a long time, wood is rotted and mold is spreading rapidly on everything including furnishings and personal items. The cost to deal with this is very high--often more then the home is worth?

If the mold is bad - the house becomes hazardous waste. I presume it gets demolished, and dumped in a hazardous waste landfill, although it probably should be incinerated.

BobG makes a good point with - Biggest evacuations in history.

But one also has to look at period over which evacuations were achieved and resources available.

Recently, I have heard a lot of emergency preparedness experts now looking at 72 hrs for holding on in face of a disaster, i.e. everyone should be prepared to survive for 72 hrs without outside assistance.

As for 9/11, many of those who evacuated Manhattan were simply people who normally commuted to Manhattan, and they simply left and went home. Others who lived there had to quickly get out, and there was transportation to do that, although it was a little disorganized at first.