Can Physics Disprove Horoscopes?

[TVP45]

For one, the difference is that astrology does not enjoy the luxury of omnipotence. One can defeat any logical argument against the existence of God by using the definitions of God, but astrology can be tested and falsified. No such test can be applied to religion.

This is why astrology is not a subject of philosophy, but the existence of God is a classic problem.

There is also the problem that astrology does not produce claims of divine interventions or direct personal encounters with the divine. It is entirely dependent on interpretations of events and nebulous predictions. For example, the Catholics have a long history of documenting alleged miracles. They then use these as a basis for faith. The same cannot be said of astrology. At most it claims to be predictive, but not interventional. And coincidence can never be ruled out as an alternative explanation for any allegedly accurate prediction.

Then of course we find millions or even hundreds of millions of people who will swear that accepting God into their life immediately changed their life - that their state of joy was vastly increased. Also, the history books are full of claims of profound religious experiences, including claims made by many scientists, but I have never heard of a profound or life changing astrological experience.

In the end, there is a logical justification for having faith in God - based in part on how one chooses to interpret history and specific events - but there is no way to justify faith in astrology because it can be falsified.

I think that, if people only believed in G-d without that belief requiring any observance of social norms and justice, that one might equate that belief to astrology. However, in general, people who believe in G-d and who also follow some of the basic tenets (don't kill, don't steal, do good to your neighbor, etc) can be arguably said to be better off than those who do not follow those tenets. Of course, many secular humanists also observe the same values, but the point is astrology has no such intrinsic value.

 

[Moonbear]

Scorpio people are variously described as powerful, weak, independent, clinging, passionate, and cold.

That's UNCANNY! I'm a Scorpio and I AM all those things!

Talk about throwing about a bunch of adjectives and hoping a few will stick. Powerful and weak. Independent and clinging. Passionate and cold. Oy!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think that, if people only believed in G-d without that belief requiring any observance of social norms and justice, that one might equate that belief to astrology. However, in general, people who believe in G-d and who also follow some of the basic tenets (don't kill, don't steal, do good to your neighbor, etc) can be arguably said to be better off than those who do not follow those tenets. Of course, many secular humanists also observe the same values, but the point is astrology has no such intrinsic value.

So you are saying that socially redeeming qualities can supercede the requirement for scientific evidence in order to logically justify belief? Or are you speaking more to the social value of living the philosophy of Christianity, for example, rather than actual belief?

 

[Lacy33]

What are the distinguishable traits for Scorpio?

"Article 7 - General.

Astrologers consider Scorpios to be energetic, passionate, deep, intuitive, and secretive, with a great deal of self-control. They also believe that Scorpios can be willful, stubborn, and easily made jealous. Scorpios are thought to be keen observers of people, and potentially calculating and manipulative. Seeing more of people's deepest motivations than others do, they have a tendency to be cynical. They are sensitive and never forget a hurt or a slight. For the typical Scorpio, forgiveness can be difficult.

Astrologers consider Scorpio perhaps the most extreme of all signs. The intensity and focus of Scorpios gives them great ability to see a project through despite all obstacles. Their strong leadership qualities, incisive analytic abilities, energy, and desire for financial security can make them motivated career people. Many Scorpios also like to flirt with danger and push themselves and those close to them to their limits. Professions traditionally associated with Scorpio include forensics, law enforcement or detective work, the military, medicine, psychology, big business, and recycling."
http://www.scorpiosite69.freeserve.co.uk/Scorpio2.html#art2

And I might add it's easy enough to P-ss one off!~ Well enough that you wish you had not ever started up with one.
{yawn}

 

[Moonbear]

"Article 7 - General.

Astrologers consider Scorpios to be energetic, passionate, deep, intuitive, and secretive, with a great deal of self-control. They also believe that Scorpios can be willful, stubborn, and easily made jealous. Scorpios are thought to be keen observers of people, and potentially calculating and manipulative. Seeing more of people's deepest motivations than others do, they have a tendency to be cynical. They are sensitive and never forget a hurt or a slight. For the typical Scorpio, forgiveness can be difficult.

Astrologers consider Scorpio perhaps the most extreme of all signs. The intensity and focus of Scorpios gives them great ability to see a project through despite all obstacles. Their strong leadership qualities, incisive analytic abilities, energy, and desire for financial security can make them motivated career people. Many Scorpios also like to flirt with danger and push themselves and those close to them to their limits. Professions traditionally associated with Scorpio include forensics, law enforcement or detective work, the military, medicine, psychology, big business, and recycling."
http://www.scorpiosite69.freeserve.co.uk/Scorpio2.html#art2

And I might add it's easy enough to P-ss one off!~ Well enough that you wish you had not ever started up with one.
{yawn}

It got the cynical part right (but then, we have lots of other cynics here who are not Scorpios). Passionate, stubborn, self control, yeah. Secretive, easily made jealous, calculating and manipulative, no. Sensitive and never forget a hurt or slight, no.

Again, if you throw out enough adjectives, the gullible will notice the ones that stick. The rest of us see how general they are and notice all the ones that don't fit too.

In case you didn't catch on, I'm a Scorpio, but don't buy into astrology nonsense. It's nothing more than amusing entertainment.

 

[Evo]

Shoshana, I am Taurus, but I've been told that my rising sign overpowers my sun sign. Taking into consideration how much sun signs have changed in the past two thousand years what sign would a Taurus actually be born under, since obviously it is no longer Taurus.

 

[binzing]

If any of that is true, then why is the girl I really like and very similar to born a few months earlier than me? EXACTLY! One word for your sis


B O G U S

 

[CEL]

"Article 7 - General.

Astrologers consider Scorpios to be energetic, passionate, deep, intuitive, and secretive, with a great deal of self-control. They also believe that Scorpios can be willful, stubborn, and easily made jealous. Scorpios are thought to be keen observers of people, and potentially calculating and manipulative. Seeing more of people's deepest motivations than others do, they have a tendency to be cynical. They are sensitive and never forget a hurt or a slight. For the typical Scorpio, forgiveness can be difficult.

Astrologers consider Scorpio perhaps the most extreme of all signs. The intensity and focus of Scorpios gives them great ability to see a project through despite all obstacles. Their strong leadership qualities, incisive analytic abilities, energy, and desire for financial security can make them motivated career people. Many Scorpios also like to flirt with danger and push themselves and those close to them to their limits. Professions traditionally associated with Scorpio include forensics, law enforcement or detective work, the military, medicine, psychology, big business, and recycling."
http://www.scorpiosite69.freeserve.co.uk/Scorpio2.html#art2

And I might add it's easy enough to P-ss one off!~ Well enough that you wish you had not ever started up with one.
{yawn}

I am a Scorpio and of course some of the traits listed apply to me. Others are very far from my personality.
That is the beauty of bogus theories. Selective thinking make believers to cling to what applies and forget what does not. A satisfied customer is not proof of a theory.

 

[Lacy33]

Well at least we know who a lot of the darling little Scorpio's are around here and how UNpassionate they are about things, hahahahahahahaha TA!~
I have to go study Scorpio now cause not only do I also have a sun and other planets in Scorpio but a a North Node in Scorpio and now a days the focus is on the north node.
Been fun...

 

[DominicConnor]

Actually the OP's sister is quite right, your time of birth does affect your life. For a start the Earth shields you from some of the radiation from the core of the galaxy. So the amount you get exposed to varies according to your orientation, and that will have a significant annual component.
It is not enough to merely call religious people ignorant, and feel smug. To counter their argument you need facts, reason, and most importantly experimental evidence.
A simple way of refuting astrology is to read out each of the predictions made yesterday, and ask her which apply to her. If she does not much better than 1/12 then it's coincidence.
Indeed, you should be able to see how to make money out of this.
As for religion you might judge it's utility in society by taking some objective measure of quality (like infant mortality or murder rates), and notice that countries like the USA which have high religious observance rates have high murder rates and truly dreadful infant mortality. Indeed the child death/religious curve is quite remarkably good. But even that is not enough. It cold be coincidence that a rich country like the USA has huge numbers of the faithful, but the same child mortality rate of countries that have people living in mud huts.
So research other correlations. For instance religious observance vsliteracy (also negative).
But the best way is to do it blind. Ask someone who advocates religion to describe (say) 3 "good" measure for a society, and see if there is any correlation. Actually, you can drive them mad that way, since it's damned hard to find any, except maybe one.
Religious countries seem on average to be richer. To be sure their children die more often, or are raped by priests (or both), and they are less likely to be able read & understand the word of their local God, but are more likely to be able to afford a big TV. I doubt if that is a correlation religious people feel proud of.

 

[TVP45]

So you are saying that socially redeeming qualities can supercede the requirement for scientific evidence in order to logically justify belief? Or are you speaking more to the social value of living the philosophy of Christianity, for example, rather than actual belief?

Yes. I choose to believe in G-d because I believe I am better off by that belief. I deliberately suspend any skepticism about whether a supernatural entity exists; that doesn't mean I buy into stories about Joshua blowing down the walls of Jericho with horns or other such allegories that have little to do with religion.

I live in a Judaeo-Christian, western culture and so I believe in the god of the Hebrew Bible. If I lived in SE Asia, I would believe as fervently, and calculatedly, in Buddha. The essential thing to me is that we somehow find an intrinsic worth to life and civilization so that we don't end up like the Nazis or embroiled in a nuclear holocaust.

 

[CEL]

Yes. I choose to believe in G-d because I believe I am better off by that belief. I deliberately suspend any skepticism about whether a supernatural entity exists; that doesn't mean I buy into stories about Joshua blowing down the walls of Jericho with horns or other such allegories that have little to do with religion.

I live in a Judaeo-Christian, western culture and so I believe in the god of the Hebrew Bible. If I lived in SE Asia, I would believe as fervently, and calculatedly, in Buddha. The essential thing to me is that we somehow find an intrinsic worth to life and civilization so that we don't end up like the Nazis or embroiled in a nuclear holocaust.

Remember that Hitler was a catholic. Suicide bombers are Muslims. Several Christian missionaries have perpetrated crimes against Native Americans and Africans.
Faith in a deity is not a guaranty of good deeds.

 

[TVP45]

Remember that Hitler was a catholic. Suicide bombers are Muslims. Several Christian missionaries have perpetrated crimes against Native Americans and Africans.
Faith in a deity is not a guaranty of good deeds.

In my earlier post, I said that faith coupled with adherence to basic values (no-kill, no-steal, no-lie, etc) was what made it worthwhile to me to suspend skeptical disbelief. BTW, I think Hitler was born a Catholic but was certainly not in good standing at the time of the war (Can you imagine him going to confession? "Forgive me father, for I have killed seventeen million people.")

In any event, I strongly differentiate between blind lip-service to religion and actual practice of religion.

 

[TVP45]

Actually the OP's sister is quite right, your time of birth does affect your life. For a start the Earth shields you from some of the radiation from the core of the galaxy. So the amount you get exposed to varies according to your orientation, and that will have a significant annual component.
It is not enough to merely call religious people ignorant, and feel smug. To counter their argument you need facts, reason, and most importantly experimental evidence.
A simple way of refuting astrology is to read out each of the predictions made yesterday, and ask her which apply to her. If she does not much better than 1/12 then it's coincidence.
Indeed, you should be able to see how to make money out of this.
As for religion you might judge it's utility in society by taking some objective measure of quality (like infant mortality or murder rates), and notice that countries like the USA which have high religious observance rates have high murder rates and truly dreadful infant mortality. Indeed the child death/religious curve is quite remarkably good. But even that is not enough. It cold be coincidence that a rich country like the USA has huge numbers of the faithful, but the same child mortality rate of countries that have people living in mud huts.
So research other correlations. For instance religious observance vsliteracy (also negative).
But the best way is to do it blind. Ask someone who advocates religion to describe (say) 3 "good" measure for a society, and see if there is any correlation. Actually, you can drive them mad that way, since it's damned hard to find any, except maybe one.
Religious countries seem on average to be richer. To be sure their children die more often, or are raped by priests (or both), and they are less likely to be able read & understand the word of their local God, but are more likely to be able to afford a big TV. I doubt if that is a correlation religious people feel proud of.

I quite agree that there is probably no correlation between piety and social utility. I do, however, think that the honest practice of any value system, whether religious or secular, that is similar to Mosaic law, leads to a better society. How else could I explain the events at Nickel Mines, PA over the past year and a half?

 

[DominicConnor]

Almost everyone believes that they are following a value system, even members of organised crime gangs. They will regard certain acts as unthinkably bad, and other actions as their duty under a code.
I don't think a human being can long function if he genuinely believes what he is doing is wrong. It's not a case of good/evil simply a matter of rationalising your position.

Indeed I would go further, and assert that the problem is not that one set of values is "better" or worse than another, but comes from "value-based" morality.
Most of the bad consequences of religion do not come from belief in God, which is simply just another model of reality but from the idea that values are more important than people, and so often these values are more important thanother people.

That of course is not restricted to religion, but neatly unifies religion, socialism and fascism all of which have killed terrible numbers of people in pursuit of "values".
Most Nazis genuinely believed in their values, and were prepared to die for them, indeed many kept on fighting for a while after Hitler had died, and most of Germany was occupied.
Many Russians and Chinese still genuinely believe socialism was a good thing, with both Stalin and Mao having millions of followers.
When confronted with their senior clergy admitting openly that they helped the rape of thousands of children, Christians find a way of continuing to support them without any obvious problems with their values.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay, we are waaaaaay off topic now. This thread is about horoscopes.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

LONDON, England (AP) -- Desperate for a glimpse into Adolf Hitler's unpredictable mind, British spies hired an astrologer during World War II to write horoscopes for him and other Nazi leaders, documents declassified Tuesday show.

They soon regretted it.

The file released to Britain's National Archives catalogs the frustrations of MI5 handlers as they tried to prevent the astrologer, Louis de Wohl, from publicly embarrassing high-ranking intelligence and military officers.

"I have never liked Louis de Wohl -- he strikes me as a charlatan and an imposter," reads the first line in the astrologer's file. The letter is typical and appeared to be signed by Dick White, who went on to become the head of Britain's domestic spy agency, MI5, in the 1950s. [continued]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/03/03/hitler.horoscope.ap/

 

[SF]

is there some physical phenomena that could explain horoscope?

Explain what about them?

One counter-argument invalidates the pseudotheory.
Counter argument: brothers born in the same day may live totally different lives.
There.

You might want to check these out:

 

[Pythagorean]

Apparently I'm a freaking badass supersleuth genius porno star. And I'm twice as passionate as any other sign:

Scorpio:

* Passionate • Powerful • Penetrating
* Intense • Determined • Compelling
* Purposeful • Keenly perceptive • Brave
* Deep • Complex • Analytical
* Inquisitive • Sensual • Mysterious
* Resourceful • Ambitious • Magnetic
* Hypnotic • Creative • Intriguing
* Profound • Loyal • Supportive
* Protective • Generous • Compassionate
* Humble • Quiet • Encompassing.
* Self-critical • Investigative • Passionate
* Caring • Tenacious • Dynamic
* Probing • Emotional • Concerned
* Shock-proof • Intense concentration • Understanding of their failings. [7]

When frustrated or unhappy, Scorpios can be:

* Self-destructive • Ruthless • Overbearing • Suspicious • Obsessive
* Jealous • Possessive • Dangerous • Quick-tempered
* Obstinate • Moody • Sadistic • Insulting • Violent • Hateful
* Secretive • Sensitive • Intolerant • Cunning • Vengeful • Vindictive.
* resentful • Devious • Agressive • Death wish • Gloomy

 

[_Mayday_]

SO many Scorpios in this thread!

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I share my sign with Hitler, says it all really. I'm on the cusp though, so that means I'm sort of a mix between Taurus and Aries, which fits' in with my lifestyle as I'm only a fascist megalomaniac on week days excluding Friday.

Horoscopes are no more reliable than me writing a load of vague and unsubstantiated twaddle that's bound to fit 90% of people 50% of the time. And works on the hit and miss technique in the same way cold reading does.

 

[ray b]

perhaps the whole thing is off by 9 months
as I cannot see the birth date being the key
but maybe at the time of conception
there is a small chance of some effect?

A STUDY OF PREMATURE BIRTHS may be interesting
in how far off the astro predictions are vs expected normal birth dates

when I was younger I learned to do birth charts
and found the info in them to be very good
weird people have weird charts
and nice normal people balanced charts
is every thing in a chart true NO
but the whole thing is a big clue to something
but the sun sign is only a part of the chart
and the whole chart is more about balance or lack there of
then the exact signs the bodys are in

 

[vmaier]

Folks: Maybe I missed something and this is a running joke and I missed the punch line, but I thought this was a science site. An now I am reading about people who are describing their astrological characteristics. Science can't disprove astrology, but it can and has been put it to the test. When astrology's predictions are tested, astrology fails and fails badly. If I missed something and am out of place, I apologize. But to be blunt, astrology is baloney and should have been ditched centuries ago.
Vince

 

[Lacy33]

Apparently I'm a freaking badass supersleuth genius porno star. And I'm twice as passionate as any other sign:

Scorpio:

* Passionate • Powerful • Penetrating
* Intense • Determined • Compelling
* Purposeful • Keenly perceptive • Brave
* Deep • Complex • Analytical
* Inquisitive • Sensual • Mysterious
* Resourceful • Ambitious • Magnetic
* Hypnotic • Creative • Intriguing
* Profound • Loyal • Supportive
* Protective • Generous • Compassionate
* Humble • Quiet • Encompassing.
* Self-critical • Investigative • Passionate
* Caring • Tenacious • Dynamic
* Probing • Emotional • Concerned
* Shock-proof • Intense concentration • Understanding of their failings. [7]

When frustrated or unhappy, Scorpios can be:

* Self-destructive • Ruthless • Overbearing • Suspicious • Obsessive
* Jealous • Possessive • Dangerous • Quick-tempered
* Obstinate • Moody • Sadistic • Insulting • Violent • Hateful
* Secretive • Sensitive • Intolerant • Cunning • Vengeful • Vindictive.
* resentful • Devious • Agressive • Death wish • Gloomy

PM me your first availability to meet.

 

[Pythagorean]

PM me your first availability to meet.

I know, even my 'frustrated' and 'unhappy' characteristics are hot.

Folks: Maybe I missed something and this is a running joke and I missed the punch line, but I thought this was a science site. An now I am reading about people who are describing their astrological characteristics. Science can't disprove astrology, but it can and has been put it to the test. When astrology's predictions are tested, astrology fails and fails badly. If I missed something and am out of place, I apologize. But to be blunt, astrology is baloney and should have been ditched centuries ago.
Vince

I don't necessarily believe in horoscopes, but I wouldn't be surprised if fall babies were more susceptible to this behavior or summer babies are more susceptible to that behavior. Up here were I live, people get SAD (seasonal affective disorder) and get all depressed when there's no sunlight for months at a time. There's definitely a biological clock tuned to our sun and it's intensity, and it's intensity is observed by us based on the season, especially Up North (and Down South I'd imagine). So that there's absolutely no effect of birthdate on personality I can't immediately assert. The idea of far-off planetary alignment, however, I'm skeptical of.

SO many Scorpios in this thread!

I'd like to see a histogram of astrological signs of scientists (and science majors) around the world. It would be interesting if Scorpios were high on that list. I continue to dismiss it as coincidence for now, but I have noticed a lot of people I socialize with are Scorpios.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I get SAD rather severely in fact, I have to be medicated for six months of the year. That said its a simple chemical imbalance. Exactly what the imbalance is and exactly how it is caused is a mystery, but it seems certain areas of the brain do have unusual physiology, and it appears to be somewhat genetic.

I read a really good debunking of astrology (like anyone needed to) It explained everything in terms of physics, it was quite interesting I'll see if I can fish it out later.

 

[CEL]

I get SAD rather severely in fact, I have to be medicated for six months of the year. That said its a simple chemical imbalance. Exactly what the imbalance is and exactly how it is caused is a mystery, but it seems certain areas of the brain do have unusual physiology, and it appears to be somewhat genetic.

I read a really good debunking of astrology (like anyone needed to) It explained everything in terms of physics, it was quite interesting I'll see if I can fish it out later.

Perhaps it is this one:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

That's the one, thanks.

 

[CEL]

I think it would be interesting, to mix up the star signs, but keep the description, or prediction. It would be interesting to see how many people still felt they were accurate. i think it would be quite difficult to set it up though, as people would probably get what the experiment was about, so the results may not prove accurate.

from http://www.astrosociety.org/education/astro/act3/astrology3.html#defense

To overcome the objections of astrologers who feel that the Sun sign alone is not enough for a reading, physicist Shawn Carlson of the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory carried out an ingenious experiment. Groups of volunteers were asked to provide information necessary for casting a full horoscope and to fill out the California Personality Inventory, a standard psychologists' questionnaire that uses just the sorts of broad, general, descriptive terms astrologers use.

A "respected" astrological organization constructed horoscopes for the volunteers, and 28 professional astrologers who had approved the procedure in advance were each sent one horoscope and three personality profiles, one of which belonged to the subject of the horoscope. Their task was to interpret the horoscope and select which of the three profiles it matched.

Although the astrologers had predicted that they would score better than 50 percent correct, their actual score in 116 trials was only 34 percent correct - just what you would expect by guessing! Carlson published his results in the December 5, 1985, issue of Nature, much to the embarrassment of the astrological community.

 

[stevecaudill]

I think modern astrology is a hoax, no horoscopes predicted the 9/11 attacks or 2004 tsunami. What fascinates me is the ancient astrologers studied the skies well enough to understand precession and other advanced topics. For more info, see cpakonline.com