Can spacetime with a compact dimension be foliated into spatial hypersurfaces?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter shoehorn
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Spacetime
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of foliating a spacetime with a compact dimension, specifically in the context of Kaluza-Klein theory. Participants explore the implications of having a compact spatial dimension in a five-dimensional spacetime and whether this affects the ability to create a foliation into spatial hypersurfaces.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss the general concept of foliating a spacetime and the implications of compact dimensions, questioning whether such a foliation is possible in the presence of a compact spatial dimension.
  • One participant proposes that a five-dimensional spacetime can be expressed as a product of a Lorentzian spacetime and a compact dimension, raising questions about the feasibility of foliating this structure.
  • Another participant suggests that the topology of hypersurfaces does not affect the foliation process, asserting that both compact and noncompact hypersurfaces can exist in such a foliation.
  • Contrarily, some participants challenge this view, arguing that the existence of compact components may present specific challenges to the foliation process, particularly in relation to the gravitational field equations of general relativity.
  • A later reply references a recent paper on ArXiv that may provide relevant insights into the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of compact dimensions for foliating spacetime. There is no consensus on whether the presence of a compact spatial dimension presents obstacles to creating a foliation into spatial hypersurfaces.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the discussion involves complex topological and differentiable structures, as well as the physical implications of the gravitational field equations, which may not be universally applicable across all scenarios.

shoehorn
Messages
420
Reaction score
2
I'm familiar with how one foliates, say, a four-dimensional spacetime [itex](\mathcal{M},g)[/itex] so that one can identify it as a sequence of spatial hypersurfaces [itex]\mathcal{M}\simeq\Sigma\times I[/itex] where [itex]\Sigma[/itex] is some spatial three-manifold and [itex]I\subseteq\mathbb{R}[/itex]. However, suppose that we're interested in a spacetime which has at least one compact dimension. For clarity, let's look at

[tex]\mathcal{N} \simeq \mathcal{M}\times S^1,[/tex]

i.e., something like a Kaluza-Klein spacetime with one compact periodic dimension per spacetime point. Does anybody know if any work has been done on foliating a spacetime like this into spatial hypersurfaces? Is this even possible?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Periodic directions?

Hi, Shoehorn, since you mentioned "spatial hyperslices", I take it that you have in mind a periodic timelike coordinate vector field. If so, consider Minkowski spacetime with [tex]t=0[/tex] and [tex]t=1[/tex] identified. Is that the kind of thing you have in mind?

Chris Hillman
 
Last edited:
Chris Hillman said:
Hi, Shoehorn, since you mentioned "spatial hyperslices", I take it that you have in mind a periodic timelike coordinate vector field. If so, consider Minkowski spacetime with [tex]t=0[/tex] and [tex]t=1[/tex] identified. Is that the kind of thing you have in mind?

Chris Hillman

No, not really. I probably should have been a little bit more specific. Let's take a, say, five-dimensional spacetime [itex]\mathcal{N}[/itex]. I construct this spacetime so that it has the special property that, for some "standard" Lorentzian spacetime [itex]\mathcal{M}[/itex], we can say [itex]\mathcal{N}=\mathcal{M}\times S^1[/itex]. Now let me propose that the compact dimension in [itex]\mathcal{N}[/itex] is spatial, so that we can think of [itex]\mathcal{N}[/itex] as being essentially the same spacetime we encounter in Kaluza-Klein theory. I then have two questions about this spacetime:

(1) Does the presence of a compact spatial dimension in [itex]\mathcal{N}[/itex] present any obstacle to foliating it by spacelike hypersurfaces so that we have [itex]\mathcal{N}\simeq\Sigma\times S^1\times I[/itex], for [itex]I\subseteq\mathbb{R}[/itex]?

(2) If not, does anybody have a link to where this has been done in the literature? I find it hard to believe that somebody hasn't published something on this question, but can't seem to find anything.
 
Hi shoehorn,

Firstly, a foliation of spacetime is simply a choice of time coordinate with respect to which the hypersurfaces are surfaces of simultaneity. The topology of these hypersurfaces doesn`t matter. They can be noncompact or compact or some product that includes both types, which is the case in your own example MxS. So consider some particle in your example spacetime with M being three dimensional. To completely specify it`s position on the hypersurface at a specific time t requires both the coordinates [x(t),y(t),z(t)] for it`s position on M, and the coordinate s(t) of it`s position on the circle S. Thus the coordinates on MxS at time t are [x(t),y(t),z(t),s(t)] so that t parametrizes the foliation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
josh1 said:
Hi shoehorn,

Firstly, a foliation of spacetime is simply a choice of time coordinate with respect to which the hypersurfaces are surfaces of simultaneity.

I'm going to be brutal here: the above statement is utterly, completely, woefully incorrect. A foliation of a spacetime [itex]\mathcal{M}[/itex] is not simply some clever "choice of time coordinate" that gives you surfaces of simultaneity. A foliation of a spacetime is a very precise process whereby one can topologically identify the spacetime with, for example, [itex]\Sigma\times I[/itex], where [itex]\Sigma[/itex] is some spatial three-surface. There are, of course, other possibilities such as null foliations, but since in GR the most common one is as a foliation by three-surfaces that's the one I'll deal with here.

More precisely, the existence of a foliation is the same as saying that there exists some one-parameter family of embeddings [itex]\varphi_t:\Sigma\to\mathcal{M}[/itex], [itex]t\in\mathbb{R}[/itex] such that [itex]\Sigma\times I[/itex] is diffeomorphic to [itex]\mathcal{M}[/itex]. Admittedly, the use of the subscript [itex]t[/itex] on the embedding is suggestive of some notion of "equal time hypersurfaces" but this is of course a matter of choice.

josh1 said:
The topology of these hypersurfaces doesn`t matter. They can be noncompact or compact or some product that includes both types, which is the case in your own example MxS.

Again, this is incorrect. Please, please, please, if this is your understanding of foliations of a spacetime, take a look at the (voluminous) literature. The review articles of Isham and Thiemann should be particularly suited to disabusing you of your confusion regarding the allowable topologies of the hypersurfaces and their relation to the topology of the spacetime.
 
coalquay404 said:
I'm going to be brutal here: the above statement is utterly, completely, woefully incorrect. A foliation of a spacetime [itex]\mathcal{M}[/itex] is not simply some clever "choice of time coordinate" that gives you surfaces of simultaneity. A foliation of a spacetime is a very precise process whereby one can topologically identify the spacetime with, for example, [itex]\Sigma\times I[/itex], where [itex]\Sigma[/itex] is some spatial three-surface. There are, of course, other possibilities such as null foliations, but since in GR the most common one is as a foliation by three-surfaces that's the one I'll deal with here.

More precisely, the existence of a foliation is the same as saying that there exists some one-parameter family of embeddings [itex]\varphi_t:\Sigma\to\mathcal{M}[/itex], [itex]t\in\mathbb{R}[/itex] such that [itex]\Sigma\times I[/itex] is diffeomorphic to [itex]\mathcal{M}[/itex]. Admittedly, the use of the subscript [itex]t[/itex] on the embedding is suggestive of some notion of "equal time hypersurfaces" but this is of course a matter of choice.
Hi coalquay404,

Your remarks hold for the general notion of a foliation independent of any metrical structure on the space being foliated. In particular you draw attention only to the topological and differentiable structure. But we are talking about solutions of the gravitational field equations of general relativity so the additional stipulation that the hypersurfaces be surfaces of simultaneity is really just a statement about the physics. However...

coalquay404 said:
Again, this is incorrect. Please, please, please, if this is your understanding of foliations of a spacetime, take a look at the (voluminous) literature. The review articles of Isham and Thiemann should be particularly suited to disabusing you of your confusion regarding the allowable topologies of the hypersurfaces and their relation to the topology of the spacetime.

Certainly solutions of the gravitational field equations with positive and vanishing cosmological constants can be foliated by surfaces of simultaneity that are compact and noncompact respectively. But solutions with negative cosmological constants aren`t necessarily globally hyperbolic and may not admit the kind of foliations I was talking about, so perhaps I should've been more careful. It just seemed like shoehorn thought that compact components present some special problem with respect to foliations and I just wanted to get the message across that this wasn`t so. Sorry if I made your blood boil.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

Replies
22
Views
2K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 73 ·
3
Replies
73
Views
12K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 48 ·
2
Replies
48
Views
11K