Can the shape of the universe be inferred from the CMBR?

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    Cmbr Shape Universe
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the potential relationship between the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) and the shape of the universe. Participants explore whether the distribution of CMBR intensity could provide insights into the universe's overall shape, including considerations of boundaries and the nature of the observable universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that variations in CMBR intensity could indicate the universe's shape, proposing that the universe might resemble a sphere with gradual protrusions and intrusions at its boundary.
  • Another participant challenges the assumption of a boundary to the universe, stating that current theory does not support this notion.
  • Some participants clarify that the discussion pertains to the visible universe, which is not a perfect sphere but close to it.
  • A participant introduces an analogy comparing the universe to a fish tank, suggesting that if other universes exist, their interactions could create intrusions and protrusions at the boundaries of our universe.
  • Several participants express skepticism about speculative ideas regarding universes pushing against each other, emphasizing the need for scientifically grounded theories.
  • One participant proposes that the dynamics of galaxies could create a swirling effect in space, analogous to water in a fish tank, potentially affecting the perceived shape of the universe.
  • Another participant criticizes the speculative nature of some claims, urging others to seek foundational knowledge about space and the universe before engaging in such discussions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the existence of a boundary to the universe and the validity of speculative ideas about interactions between multiple universes. There is no consensus on the implications of CMBR for understanding the universe's shape.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on assumptions about the universe's boundary and the nature of multiple universes, which are not universally accepted in current scientific discourse. The discussion includes speculative analogies that may not align with established theories.

goldust
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Planck CMBR data http://scienceforseniorcitizens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/cosmic-microwave-radiation-google-earth-background1.jpg

COBE, WMAP, Planck compared to each other http://www.scidacreview.org/0704/images/cmb07.jpg

Methinks the distribution of the CMBR intensity as seen from Earth's perspective could indicate the overall shape of the universe. Is so, the greater is the distance between the boundary of the universe and Earth, the less intensity would be the CMBR as seen from Earth, and vice verse. Just as the Earth is not a perfect sphere, the Universe could resemble a sphere but rather than being a perfect sphere, it has intrusions and protrusions at its boundary, which causes the CMBR to deviate from uniformity. The Planck satellite reveals that variations of the CMBR are gradual, with places that are colder tend to be gradually colder than their surrounding areas, and vice versa. Could this suggest the boundary of the universe is almost a sphere but with gradual protrusions and intrusions at its boundary? What do you think? :-p
 
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Your assumption that the universe has a boundary is not accepted by current theory.
 
I think you mean visible universe. It is not a perfect sphere, but it is extremely close to that.
 
mfb said:
I think you mean visible universe. It is not a perfect sphere, but it is extremely close to that.

This is correct. I should have specified visible universe. Thanks for the correction. :biggrin:

mathman said:
Your assumption that the universe has a boundary is not accepted by current theory.

A fish tank has a boundary yet fish don't see the boundary. :biggrin: If there are other universes outside our own, their space may push against the boundary of our universe, which causes intrusions inward from the boundary of our universe, and our space may likewise push against their space, which causes protrusions outward from the boundary of our universe.
 
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goldust said:
If there are other universes outside our own, their space may push against the boundary of our universe, which causes intrusions inward from the boundary of our universe, and our space may likewise push against their space, which causes protrusions outward from the boundary of our universe.
Please stick to actual science, wild speculations without any background are not allowed here.

The shape of the observable universe can be observed (...), the shape of the whole universe might be inferred, but "universes" "pushing" each other is not a scientific theory.
 
mfb said:
Please stick to actual science, wild speculations without any background are not allowed here.

The shape of the observable universe can be observed (...), the shape of the whole universe might be inferred, but "universes" "pushing" each other is not a scientific theory.

I was suggesting a possible cause for protrusions and intrusions of space at the boundary of the universe, supposing such a boundary and protrusions and intrusions exist. Suppose that our own universe is like a fish tank. The water in the tank is not completely calm, but as objects say fish in the tank move around, the water gets swirled around. Likewise, the space in our universe may not be calm but could also be swirling around like water in a fish tank, possibly from movement of galaxies or other bodies suspended in space. But now, suppose the boundary of universe or universes are like clear plastic bags, ones that used to contain water and fish at carnivals, we would not be able to see boundaries of universes or detect swirling around of space, but space could push against the boundary like water can push against a plastic bag, causing intrusions and protrusions of space between universes much like if we put two such bags of water next to each other and move the water about in each bag, the two bags would push against each other, causing intrusions and protrusions about the two bags.
 
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Okay, that post is so full of misconceptions that it is pointless to continue here. Please read books or other explanations about the concepts of space, visible universe and universe first before you start speculations.
A good introduction is this balloon analogy thread.
 

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