Can we find the frequency of a rod pendulum by just using F=ma?

In summary, the conversation discusses different approaches for finding the angular acceleration of a rod pendulum and how the results can vary. The first approach, using Newton's Second Law for a system of particles, does not account for the non-tangential force exerted by the pivot on the rod. This leads to a different result from the second approach, using Newton's Second Law for rotation. The expert notes that for a heavy rod pendulum, the pivot exerts a non-tangential force, while for an ideal pendulum with a massless rigid rod, the pivot only exerts a tangential force. The conversation ends with a discussion on the moment of inertia and its effect on the forces exerted by the pivot.
  • #1
Homgkung
5
4
Homework Statement
finding the angular acceleration by using newton's second law for a system of particles
Relevant Equations
torque = I a
F=ma
Summary: When I tried to find the angular frequency of a rod pendulum, I attempted to find its angular acceleration first, however, I realized that the results are different by using different approaches. i.e. (1) Newton's second law for a system of particles (2) Newton's second law for rotation.
The two approaches should give the same angular acceleration.
can anyone check if any mistakes in my first approach? Much appreciated!

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Approach 1
Take the whole rod as a system, so we can apply Newton's Second Law for a system of particles.
The Newton's Second Law for a system of particles states that the total net force equals the mass of the rod multiplies the acceleration of the center of mass (or CG here), which is located at the center of the rod.

As the CG moves along a circular path, we can resolve the acceleration of the CG into the radial component and the tangential component a//.
As we are just interested in the angular accelerated, we just consider the tangential motion.
a// = (L/2)Ӫ (1)
where Ӫ is the angular acceleration of the rod

Then we can also resolve the gravity in the radial component and tangential component (-mg *sinϴ). By using Newton's second law for a system of particles, the tangential acceleration is determined solely by the tangential component of the gravity, which means
-mg*(sinϴ) = m*a// (2)
(the radial acceleration is determined by the Reaction force from the pivot and the radial component of the gravity, however, the radial acceleration does not affect the angular acceleration, so we could ignore it here.)

(1) and (2) give:
Ӫ = -(2/L)g* sinϴ (*)

Approach 2
By using Newton's second law for rotation, we can easily apply the following relationship
τ = I Ӫ (3)
, where τ is the torque about point O and I is the moment of inertia, which equals 1/3 m L^2 .

The net torque is just the torque of the gravity, τ = -L/2*mg* sinϴ (4)

Linking (3) and (4) , we have
Ӫ = -(3/2L) g* sinϴ (**)

Conclusion:
The angular acceleration from approach 1 and 2 are so different!

Questions
I am pretty sure that the (**) is correct while (*) is not, however, I couldn't find any problems in the working in approach 1 (which bothers me so much).
Please help to identify the mistake(s) I made in approach 1 ! much appreciated!
 

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  • #2
Approach (1) doesn't work. The pivot will have a force component that is not in radial direction. It is this force that causes the rod to rotate (as seen from the center of mass) - which is necessary for the pendulum motion.
 
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  • #3
Homgkung said:
the tangential acceleration is determined solely by the tangential component of the gravity
What about the force at the pivot?

Edit: @mfb for the win!
 
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  • #4
mfb said:
Approach (1) doesn't work. The pivot will have a force component that is not in radial direction. It is this force that causes the rod to rotate (as seen from the center of mass) - which is necessary for the pendulum motion.
Thank you for your suggestion! Can you qualitatively prediction the variation of the reaction force on the pivot?
 
  • #5
Dale said:
What about the force at the pivot?

Edit: @mfb for the win!
Yes I think I did miss it, thanks a lot
 
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  • #6
Dale said:
What about the force at the pivot?

Edit: @mfb for the win!
Hi, I just come up with another picky case which may disagree with what you mentioned about the force from the pivot.
suppose that there is a heavy bob pendulum linked with a massless rigid rod.

From Newton's second law for rotation (must be correct). I can find the angular acceleration as
Ӫ = - (g/L)* sinϴ (1)

From Newton's second law for a system of particles, and boldly assume that the pivot only provides a tangential force on the bob, similar to approach 1 in my original post. I can get
Ӫ = - (g/L)* sinϴ (2)


(1) and (2) are identical, which means for this case the pivot does not give any NON-tangential force on the rod?!

To sum up my doubts: For a heavy rod pendulum, pivot exerts a NON-tangential force on the rod; For an ideal pendulum with a massless rigid rod, the pivot only exerts a tangential force on the rod.
What cause the pivot to 'decide' the direction of reaction force on the rod?
 
  • #7
Homgkung said:
(1) and (2) are identical, which means for this case the pivot does not give any NON-tangential force on the rod?!
That is correct. What is the moment of inertia for a point mass about the center of mass?
 
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  • #8
Dale said:
That is correct. What is the moment of inertia for a point mass about the center of mass?
I think I got what you mean! A non tangential force is not needed as the moment of inertia is zero. Thanks a lot!
 
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FAQ: Can we find the frequency of a rod pendulum by just using F=ma?

What is the formula for finding the frequency of a rod pendulum using F=ma?

The formula for finding the frequency of a rod pendulum using F=ma is: f = (1/2π) √(g/L), where f is the frequency, g is the acceleration due to gravity, and L is the length of the pendulum.

Can F=ma be used to find the frequency of any pendulum?

Yes, F=ma can be used to find the frequency of any pendulum, as long as the pendulum's motion is simple harmonic motion and the pendulum is a point mass.

What are the limitations of using F=ma to find the frequency of a rod pendulum?

The limitations of using F=ma to find the frequency of a rod pendulum include assuming the pendulum's motion is simple harmonic motion, neglecting air resistance, and assuming the pendulum is a point mass.

How accurate is using F=ma to find the frequency of a rod pendulum?

The accuracy of using F=ma to find the frequency of a rod pendulum depends on the accuracy of the measurements used for g and L, as well as the assumptions made for simple harmonic motion and point mass. Overall, it can provide a good estimate of the frequency.

What are some other methods for finding the frequency of a rod pendulum?

Other methods for finding the frequency of a rod pendulum include using the small angle approximation, measuring the period of the pendulum's motion, and using mathematical models to simulate the pendulum's motion. These methods may provide more accurate results but can also be more complex and time-consuming.

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