Can we talk about graduate school?

[tolove]

I've decided on going back to school for a physics degree. I want to know it, and there's nothing else out there that I'm as interested in. But school isn't for pleasure, it's for getting a job. A 4-year in physics alone, from what I've been reading, is about as good as any other degree. It'll look nice, but get you very little by itself.

Now, for graduate school.. help?

What degrees are currently in demand? What degrees could I cross over into with a physics BS? Where are good places to find internships (Virginia)?

 

[micromass]

If you want to get a good job easily, then you might want to think of an engineering degree. For example, Electrical Engineering or Mechanical Engineering degrees are very employable/ They have a significant overlap with physics, so a double major in physics and engineering is certainly doable.

 

[Choppy]

It's worth mentioning now that university and particularly academic programs like physics do NOT exist "for getting a job." They're for giving you an education.

If you want job training, you have to look at either professional programs (engineering, medicine, etc.) or to a community college.

 

[tolove]

It's worth mentioning now that university and particularly academic programs like physics do NOT exist "for getting a job." They're for giving you an education.

If you want job training, you have to look at either professional programs (engineering, medicine, etc.) or to a community college.

I don't think anyone goes in paying 20k+ a year just so they can "get an education," but thanks for being overly pessimistic for me today.

Welcome back anytime

 

[jimmyly]

I don't think anyone goes in paying 20k+ a year just so they can "get an education," but thanks for being overly pessimistic for me today.

Welcome back anytime

i have to disagree with you. i go to school for the fun and to learn. i am planning on spending 20k+ just for an education and because i enjoy it.

everyone going into physics KNOWS that it won't bring nice cars, nice clothes,a giant house, or a big bank account. i do it because i love it and doing anything else would be a waste of time.

please refrain from making statements like university is to get a job and no one goes to school just for knowledge. No, university is for learning. people hire university graduates for their knowledge.

if you think no one would pay 20+ k just for knowledge you are ignorant. i played hockey all my life and payed well over 20k because i love it.

the same way as i am going to pay for knowledge because that's what is important to me in life

 

[Angry Citizen]

i have to disagree with you. i go to school for the fun and to learn. i am planning on spending 20k+ just for an education and because i enjoy it.

everyone going into physics KNOWS that it won't bring nice cars, nice clothes,a giant house, or a big bank account. i do it because i love it and doing anything else would be a waste of time.

please refrain from making statements like university is to get a job and no one goes to school just for knowledge. No, university is for learning. people hire university graduates for their knowledge.

if you think no one would pay 20+ k just for knowledge you are ignorant. i played hockey all my life and payed well over 20k because i love it.

the same way as i am going to pay for knowledge because that's what is important to me in life

The vast majority of people cannot hope to pay for that without significant assistance from their parents, or a job waiting for them at the end.

OP: Consider engineering, most definitely. Some engineers are heavily into physics, although not the kind of physics that a physicist would explore. Orbital trajectory designers are my favorite example: most of the things they do are physics. It's just hell-and-gone from the kind of physics you'd see as a physicist.

 

[jimmyly]

and to add to that. Just because you have a degree it guarantees nothing. so asking what degree is in high demand doesn't mean anything. i got a job over people who graduated with degrees for a nutrition job straight out of high school.
i got it over people with nutritional science degrees, kinesiology degrees, and others.

so... is university for getting a job? it willhelp but no guarantees. if you chase things in "high demand" now, it may not be tomorrow. if you do what you love and your damn good at it. you will be happy

 

[jimmyly]

The vast majority of people cannot hope to pay for that without significant assistance from their parents, or a job waiting for them at the end.

OP: Consider engineering, most definitely. Some engineers are heavily into physics, although not the kind of physics that a physicist would explore. Orbital trajectory designers are my favorite example: most of the things they do are physics. It's just hell-and-gone from the kind of physics you'd see as a physicist.

yes, but my point is that a lot of people DO go to university for the education.

 

[dkotschessaa]

The advisor to our physics club told me he thinks it's very sad that people consider education to be for job training, and not for enlightenment.

-Dave K

 

[jimmyly]

The advisor to our physics club told me he thinks it's very sad that people consider education to be for job training, and not for enlightenment.

-Dave K

i agree with your advisor completely.

 

[Locrian]

I don't think anyone goes in paying 20k+ a year just so they can "get an education,"

Why not? They pay for all kinds of silly things, why not that one? In any case a physics Masters or PhD shouldn't cost $20k, it should cost roughly $0. (I agree the BS will cost, but I thought the thread was about grad school).

If you're careful about what area you study, are geographically flexible, are very good in both school work and lab work, and have a bit of luck on your side, I really believe you can earn a great living with a Masters or PhD in physics.

Go into the wrong area and your education will have been worth very little.

Good luck!

 

[tolove]

The advisor to our physics club told me he thinks it's very sad that people consider education to be for job training, and not for enlightenment.

-Dave K

I was a bit cynical in my original post, I will admit. I'm going to study this even if it means I work out of field, just because the subject is amazing. But at the same time, it's expensive! I will have to recoup my losses, and I'd rather be in a better position afterwords.


May I ask about teaching? How do you guys feel about it? I don't see it mentioned too often on here (I haven't been around long, though). There are lots of teaching jobs out there, no?

Best case scenario-- I'm a genius and didn't know it, land a research job
Middle case scenarios-- I find an interesting job in a related field.
Worst case scenario-- I teach. Heck, teaching isn't that bad, I could live and be happy with this too.

 

[tolove]

Why not? They pay for all kinds of silly things, why not that one? In any case a physics Masters or PhD shouldn't cost $20k, it should cost roughly $0. (I agree the BS will cost, but I thought the thread was about grad school).

If you're careful about what area you study, are geographically flexible, are very good in both school work and lab work, and have a bit of luck on your side, I really believe you can earn a great living with a Masters or PhD in physics.

Go into the wrong area and your education will have been worth very little.

Good luck!

Graduate school should be free? Are scholarships really that easy to come by?

One of my biggest worries about going to grad school is whether or not I'll be able to afford it. I'm sure there are guides everywhere on here for finding scholarships, I'll look around. Thanks for the ease of mind.

 

[Catria]

As far as graduate school is concerned, inquire about the funding level provided to students enrolled in that graduate program beforehand (unless the program is in a school like UBC, where funding is made clear enough to prospective graduate students so that they can plan their graduate studies around it)

There really are grad schools that would cost nothing out of your own pocket since these grad schools are fully funded.

 

[ModusPwnd]

"There are lots of teaching jobs out there, no?"

I wouldn't say so. Teach for America could find a spot for you. Otherwise many districts are putting teachers on furlough and letting them retire without re-hiring. Teaching jobs are out there, but there is not lots. Of my undergrad cohort 3 of them ended up doing Teach for America.

 

[ZombieFeynman]

Graduate school should be free? Are scholarships really that easy to come by?

One of my biggest worries about going to grad school is whether or not I'll be able to afford it. I'm sure there are guides everywhere on here for finding scholarships, I'll look around. Thanks for the ease of mind.

If you're looking at graduate schools in America and you have:

A GPA over 3.33 (equivalent to American System)
A PGRE score > 40 percentile
Research experience of any sort
and solid letters of recommendation corroborating you're not a complete moron

Look forward to getting a fully funded PhD somewhere.

(Your experiences may vary)(Don't commit felonies: this seriously hurts your chances)

 

[SMHPhysics]

This is wrong. If money is all that people want to think about these days, I honestly don't stand for it. I'm planning to double major in math and physics, neither of which may get me much money in life, but it's passion and an enjoyment for the subject that move me. Money invested in education is not money wasted. I'll give you an idea what's wasted money: big mansion, racing cars, wine, beer etc...

 

[ModusPwnd]

Easy to say... But if you don't get a career out of it and make no more after than you did before that is easily seen as money, and time, wasted. Its fun and fulfilling to know some relativity and quantum. But without a career to pay for it most people would not attempt it. Money isn't everything, but it is something.

 

[Jorriss]

Easy to say... But if you don't get a career out of it and make no more after than you did before that is easily seen as money, and time, wasted. Its fun and fulfilling to know some relativity and quantum. But without a career to pay for it most people would not attempt it. Money isn't everything, but it is something.

Which is fair, but for many of us school was all about pleasure, if only because of our ignorance (my ignorance) of any real world concerns.

 

[Bipolarity]

The view to college should be a balance of both financial and personal considerations. This will be different for each person, but eventually once must draw a line between money and the other things if one is to make a decision consistent with one's beliefs.

For instance, if you are an international student looking to eventually immigrate to a developed country, you need a job and sponsorship in that country. This is much easier to do with engineering than with a subject like Archaeology. All the int'l students I know have moved back to their country if their major was not in engineering/mathematics/computer science/economics. The math degree becomes heavily employable when combned with either economics or computer science (idk about physics).

This is certainly true of the US and Japan; to my knowledge the immigration laws in these countries are much more lenient towards workers in high-skill occupations, i.e. engineering/CS/financial analyst. My guess extrapolates this to other developed countries.

Another example, I have a friend who is doing computer engineering. He does not even like studying; if he could do what he spontaneously wanted to do, it would be video games, but those really don't earn you anything He was hardworking enough to scrape through the graduation and secure a modest entry level job. Why did he pick engineering?

One of the reasons was that his little brother had a passion of being a doctor. Becoming a doctor is very expensive in the US. The older brother took the decision of majoring in engineering so he could pay (at least in part) for his younger brother's expenses in medical school. The younger brother, unlike the older, is deeply passionate about medicine. To be frank the older brother doesn't care what he majored in, as long as it payed enough for his younger brother's needs.

You don't have to major in the subject you spontaneously love the most. It just's that you need to make the decision so that you don't regret it afterwards, and since few people can advice others on the future, the gut feeling is also important in these matters, since few people know you better than yourself.

This is all coming from someone who *almost* majored in math, but ended up majoring in EE. In my free time I read books on stuff like real analysis and cryptography, so I still *love* math, but have decided *not* to make it a part of my career, in much the same was Einstein did not consider violin to be a part of his career.

BiP

 

[ParticleGrl]

everyone going into physics KNOWS that it won't bring nice cars, nice clothes,a giant house, or a big bank account. i do it because i love it and doing anything else would be a waste of time.

Right after you talk about how you aren't studying to gt a job, you suggest you are "going into physics." Studying physics is NOT going into physics- more likely than not its going into IT,finance, insurance,etc. You should do what you love, but it helps to think longer term than "right now." i.e. if you would be happier in engineering than in insurance, you should probably major in engineering and not physics.

The advisor to our physics club told me he thinks it's very sad that people consider education to be for job training, and not for enlightenment.

If the advisor to your physics club is a physics professor, he didn't follow his own advice. For him college and graduate school WERE job training. Beware people who are giving advice they wouldn't follow themselves.

Best case scenario-- I'm a genius and didn't know it, land a research job
Middle case scenarios-- I find an interesting job in a related field.
Worst case scenario-- I teach. Heck, teaching isn't that bad, I could live and be happy with this too.

I think you have a distorted picture. Most physics phds leave science in general (and work in finance,IT,insurance,programming,etc) after the phd+some postdocs, so your middle case scenario is pretty unlikely unless your definition of related field is different than mine.

As to your worst case scenario- there aren't very many full-time teaching positions. At the college level, teaching duties are increasingly being taken up by adjuncts, and these aren't full-time positions (its hard to get a full load of classes. and even if you do you only make 20-30k a year, no benefits).

At the high school level- you have to convince a cash strapped district to hire someone who 1. is in the highest pay bracket (phd) and 2. has no high school teaching experience. Its a tough sell.

 

[DrummingAtom]

I don't think anyone goes in paying 20k+ a year just so they can "get an education," but thanks for being overly pessimistic for me today.

Welcome back anytime

Some people don't pay anything to go to school, so an education might be all they want because they won't be in debt at the end.

 

[Rika]

.Another example, I have a friend who is doing computer engineering. He does not even like studying; if he could do what he spontaneously wanted to do, it would be video games, but those really don't earn you anything He was hardworking enough to scrape through the graduation and secure a modest entry level job.

How come? With programming skills you can secure a modest entry level job in gamedev company too. Was he "indie or nothing" kind of guy or sth?

Right after you talk about how you aren't studying to gt a job, you suggest you are "going into physics." Studying physics is NOT going into physics- more likely than not its going into IT,finance, insurance,etc. You should do what you love, but it helps to think longer term than "right now." i.e. if you would be happier in engineering than in insurance, you should probably major in engineering and not physics.

True. People think that if you go to college for career then it means that you see $$$ in your eyes but it's not true. For me having enjoyable job is most important. Well no matter what college lasts 3-5 years while job lasts decades.

I don't think that studying physics for 3-10 years and then going for a job that you don't like (programming or sth) pays off. In long-term it's better to think what kind of JOB would you like to have, not what do you want to STUDY.

I trully have enjoyed studying physics - reading books, watching movies etc. but I have realized that I don't want to work as programmer, medical physicist, engineer, researcher or teacher. Fortunately education in my country is tuitition-free so I didn't waste my parent's money and I could do everything over again (I work in a different field that I trully enjoy and study different, my job-related major).

It's also true that people from poor countries (not as rich as US) just simply can't afford to study whatever they want (unless their parents run successful business) because they will end up in customer services job (7200$ per year) and stay there forever. Humanities/social sciences but also science (biology, chemistry) are "no-no" in my country. Money is not everything but with 7200$ per year you can't afford to have car, 2-rooms flat or start a family.

What's more - if we want to try our luck in different, rich country we need to have PRACTICAL skills (field doesn't matter) to set our foot there. Getting academic (not practical) degree leads to low-paid job in customer services. Working 5 years in customer services doesn't count as reliable job experience or skills.

It's true that while working in customer services you can pick up some skills on your own like programming but for god's sake - not everyone can become programmers. It is said in my country that if you don't have a talent for practical degree (medicine, computer science etc.) or a certain passion that can bring food to your table (in my case it's gamedev) then instead of getting useless science/humanities degree you should get solid vocational traning and become electrician, plumber, chief etc. And if you want to educate yourself in let's say literature then you can pick up some books and read stuff in internet.

 

[dkotschessaa]

I was a bit cynical in my original post, I will admit. I'm going to study this even if it means I work out of field, just because the subject is amazing. But at the same time, it's expensive! I will have to recoup my losses, and I'd rather be in a better position afterwords.


May I ask about teaching? How do you guys feel about it? I don't see it mentioned too often on here (I haven't been around long, though). There are lots of teaching jobs out there, no?

Best case scenario-- I'm a genius and didn't know it, land a research job
Middle case scenarios-- I find an interesting job in a related field.
Worst case scenario-- I teach. Heck, teaching isn't that bad, I could live and be happy with this too.

I hate to sound mystical but since I'm a "returning adult" I have a different perspective on this stuff. I think you should pursue your studies with passion and vigor. Do something you absolutely love and possibly are obsessed with. Don't spend too much attention on job considerations (the biggest obstacle to this is parents, who want to know "what are you going to do with that?") but keep your eyes open for opportunities. I think if you are hardworking, passionate, and good, the opportunities will appear. The work will come.

It might even entail a complete change of direction. You may get a bachelors in physics and find you are totally satisfied and you want to move into engineering, programming, get an MBA, become a welder or truck driver - who the hell knows. If you pursue education for enlightenment rather than for job training then that's always going to be with you no matter where you go afterwards.

I know this is easier said than done when you're younger and worrying about how to earn a living and such.

To answer your original question, which for some reason I didn't - you can do pretty much anything with a math and/or physics degree, grad school wise.

To answer your question in this post, there is nothing wrong with teaching, though I'm not sure on what level you mean this. This could mean anything from high school (or lower) to the coveted, tenured professor job (in which case you are doing research as well.)

-Dave K

 

[Choppy]

I can't help, but wonder if my original point was missed.

If you look at the data on people who graduate with a physics degree, they tend to do fairly well financially - earning roughly in the middle of the pack when compared with engineers, and well ahead of most other majors - including business, social science, and biochem-types.

Education increases your earning potential. That's a hard fact.

What I meant was that a degree in physics doesn't train you for a specific job. Unlike engineering for example, when you graduate and go out to look for that first career-type job, you won't find many postings that are specifically looking for someone with a physics degree.

As a physics graduate you will have many skills that employers find desirable: problem-solving, programming, research, technical writing, a thorough understanding of technical areas, and even project-management skills.

But most undergraduate physics programs are not designed to prepare you for a specific job. They're designed to teach you physics and prepare you for graduate school.

 

[Locrian]

Graduate school should be free?

Oh no, I meant cost $0 to you. I'm not arguing it is free.

My stipend was roughly $1400 a month, if I remember right. I did accrue a little bit of debt, but I could have avoided it had I been more prudent with my money. (For some reason, it has always been that when I’m in school, I spend more freely; another good reason for me to not be in school. . .)

This is grad school in physics we’re discussing though, right? An MBA or PT will cost a big chunk of change.

 

[tolove]

"There are lots of teaching jobs out there, no?"

I wouldn't say so. Teach for America could find a spot for you. Otherwise many districts are putting teachers on furlough and letting them retire without re-hiring. Teaching jobs are out there, but there is not lots. Of my undergrad cohort 3 of them ended up doing Teach for America.

This probably wasn't meant to reassure me, but I really like knowing about this program. I have an unusual ability to deal with stressful people, and have always been drawn to areas like this (not as a permanent career, though!).

Post-doc assistant jobs will be an option for a while, teaching is an option, going out of physics and into a related field is an option, grad school shouldn't cost much out of pocket, then, of course, the dream of landing a research position. This is enough for me.

Now I can just worry about getting my GPA above a 3.3. I graduated my 2-year with a 3.0, so I will worry about this now! Time to review calculus and classical physics, then pre-study modern physics before classes start.

I'm glad I made this thread, very nice forum here!

 

[chill_factor]

I can't help, but wonder if my original point was missed.

If you look at the data on people who graduate with a physics degree, they tend to do fairly well financially - earning roughly in the middle of the pack when compared with engineers, and well ahead of most other majors - including business, social science, and biochem-types.

Education increases your earning potential. That's a hard fact.

What I meant was that a degree in physics doesn't train you for a specific job. Unlike engineering for example, when you graduate and go out to look for that first career-type job, you won't find many postings that are specifically looking for someone with a physics degree.

As a physics graduate you will have many skills that employers find desirable: problem-solving, programming, research, technical writing, a thorough understanding of technical areas, and even project-management skills.

But most undergraduate physics programs are not designed to prepare you for a specific job. They're designed to teach you physics and prepare you for graduate school.

averages are misleading; you should know the distribution. physics majors have a very wide distribution of pays ranging from investment banking level to fast food level. turns out that investment banking + fast food / 2 = slightly higher than average pay.

this tells me that it is the quality of the people that learn physics, rather than physics the subject itself, that predicts success. Your personal potential is maximized (or minimized) with a physics degree. An average guy majoring in business and getting a 3.5 is going to have better prospects than an average guy majoring in physics getting a 3.0; on the other hand, someone brilliant will be better served in physics.

Also its interesting to note but the average GRE scores, both verbal and quant, are higher for physics majors than for any other physical science/engineering majors, which themselves are higher than for life and social sciences.

 

[Locrian]

I don't see where Choppy mentioned averages at all. He could well be referring to the median, which is less sensitive to skew.

 

[Bipolarity]

How come? With programming skills you can secure a modest entry level job in gamedev company too. Was he "indie or nothing" kind of guy or sth?

I meant playing video games not designing them. Even game design does not pay as much as engineering.

BiP