Can you eat the Periodic Table?

[Algr]

TL;DR

Can food be made from raw chemical elements?

If you had an unlimited supply of periodic elements (in their most stable form), an advanced lab, and internet access, but could not access things like seeds or actual samples of DNA, could you make food?

I know salt and water would be easy to make. But what about sugar, proten, and vitamins? Would carbohydrates or fats be necessary?

 

[BillTre]

You have a series of different questions:
1) Can you eat the periodic table?
A: yes depending on what it is printed on.

2) If you had an unlimited supply of periodic elements (in their most stable form), an advanced lab, and internet access, but could not access things like seeds or actual samples of DNA, could you make food?
A: I guess this means stuff you can safely eat. Probably, to a limited extent. Salts and water like you said. Fatty acids, carbs. Others would be more difficult. Product might have to be isolated from non-eatable side products.

3) But what about sugar, protein, and vitamins? Would carbohydrates or fats be necessary?
They would be more difficult to make without the help of biological mechanisms, but might in theory.
Q3.2: Would they be necessary to make food? No.
Q3.3: Are they necessary for a full diet for humans to survive? Yes.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I know very very little about chemistry but if your question is that if you could synthesize edible things from raw elements then the answer is yes considering everything not subatomic comes from elements.
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I find the question a bit silly. If someone actually had a lab advanced enough to do this then I question whether 'the internet' as we know it would be necessary. Unlikely it would exist at all as we know it.
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I consider nature to be this 'lab' in a sort of way. Plant life takes up some very basic substances to survive and reproduce.

 

[Mayhem]

I could on a timescale of ~4 billion years.

 

[Rive]

Can food be made from raw chemical elements?

...what about sugar, proten, and vitamins? Would carbohydrates or fats be necessary?

Nope, we are not quite there yet.

Though, there are some results already, so some forms of carbohydrates and maybe fats would be available => you would die to some fascinating combination of various nutrient-deficiencies, but not due low calorie.

 

[Astronuc]

TL;DR Summary: Can food be made from raw chemical elements?

If you had an unlimited supply of periodic elements (in their most stable form), an advanced lab, and internet access, but could not access things like seeds or actual samples of DNA, could you make food?

That's what plants do, except they reorganize compounds like CO₂ and H₂O. Nitrogen is taken from the soil by specialized organisms, and the element is used in Chlorophyll, which also uses Mg.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Chlorophyll_d_structure.svg

Nitrogen is so vital because it is a major component of chlorophyll, the compound by which plants use sunlight energy to produce sugars from water and carbon dioxide (i.e., photosynthesis). It's also important because nitrogen is a: Major component of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins.

Plants also require phosphorus and potassium.
https://extension.wvu.edu/lawn-gardening-pests/news/2021/08/01/how-plants-use-nutrients
Micronutrients, including manganese, boron and zinc, play an important role in plant growth and development.

Herbivores eat plant matter and convert it to animal protein.

Vitamins require certain transitional elements, e.g., Co in cobalamin (Vitamin B2)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Cobalamin_skeletal.svg


Of course, many elements are considered toxic in sufficient quantities, and heavy elements like Hg, Pb are toxic in small quantities, and radioactive elements (which are unstable) are toxic is very small levels. As far as I recall, Ni has no biological function, and in fact may be considered toxic in sufficient quantities.

 

[Algr]

I find the question a bit silly. If someone actually had a lab advanced enough to do this then I question whether 'the internet' as we know it would be necessary. Unlikely it would exist at all as we know it.

Well this is really a question about what real life laboratories can do today. There is a huge list of things that nature can do, but we can't yet. That is why I specified that the lab does not have seeds or DNA samples.

 

[russ_watters]

I guess my question is why we'd even want to.

 

[Algr]

Well, a lot of scientific progress started with people basically testing out what their new tools can actually do.

 

[Astronuc]

Well this is really a question about what real life laboratories can do today. There is a huge list of things that nature can do, but we can't yet. That is why I specified that the lab does not have seeds or DNA samples.

Nature does it effectively/efficiently compared to what one might achieve by starting with the raw materials. For example, biofuel is produced by certain algae. Various biolabs explore various algae, but one still needs Nature, the organism. Alternatively, one can make synthetic fuel using a Fischer-Tropsch process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer–Tropsch_process

Making 'food' or amino acids, proteins or vitamins is much more complicated.

Some vitamins are manufactured chemically.
See -

Production of vitamins, coenzymes and related biochemicals by biotechnological processes​

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1368195/

Several vitamins and related biofactors are now only or mainly produced chemically (vitamin A, cholecalciferol (D3), tocopherol (E), vitamin K2, thiamine (B1), niacin (PP or B3), pantothenic acid (B5), pyridoxine (B6), biotin (H or B8), folic acid (B9)

An example of Vitamin A: 75 Years of Vitamin A Production: A Historical and Scientific Overview of the Development of New Methodologies in Chemistry, Formulation, and Biotechnology
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.oprd.3c00161

An interesting summary in this article: Catalytic processes in vitamins synthesis and production
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0926860X04007549

One can find background in patents
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3661939A/en

Industrial synthesis of pantothenic acid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantothenic_acid#Industrial_synthesis

 

[russ_watters]

Well, a lot of scientific progress started with people basically testing out what their new tools can actually do.

Science yes, inventions no. Science is advancing knowledge, often just for the sake of knowledge. But inventions are typically mothered by necessity.

We do have some ability to assemble some things atom by atom, I just don't see why we'd want to apply that to food. Outside of a horribly impractical Star Trek style replicator it doesn't seem like a very useful thing to be able to do.

 

[pinball1970]

Well, a lot of scientific progress started with people basically testing out what their new tools can actually do.

This process has been around for a while.

https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Organic_Chemistry/Basic_Principles_of_Organic_Chemistry_(Roberts_and_Caserio)/25:_Amino_Acids_Peptides_and_Proteins/25.06:_Synthesis_of_-Amino_Acids

More detail on the Strecker process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strecker_amino_acid_synthesis

This is new.

https://phys.org/news/2024-04-cyclodextrins-lab.html

Some of these things become more interesting when a system is found that can initiate a process from simple building blocks, then maintain it, improve it even.

I would check out the thread on Abiogenesis.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/nick-lanes-on-sean-carrolls-podcast.1016752/

Just one more because this is hot off the press. Peptide formation out in the interstellar medium is replicated in the lab from basic molecules and Carbon.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adj7179

 

[sophiecentaur]

Well, a lot of scientific progress started with people basically testing out what their new tools can actually do.

There is very little random experimenting and blindly testing things these days. Research work costs money and you have to argue very hard to get funding for most work unless you present some hopeful evidence.

One of the reasons / excuses for medicines being so expensive is that most things they test lead nownere. Also the thick carpets on all Big Pharma offices. My daughter in law was told to get a posher car if she wanted to impress customers and get promotion.

 

[Algr]

Outside of a horribly impractical Star Trek style replicator it doesn't seem like a very useful thing to be able to do.

What if someday a space probe transmitted back the atomic structure of alien life?

 

[phinds]

What if someday a space probe transmitted back the atomic structure of alien life?

And what good do you think that would do us?

 

[Vanadium 50]

And what good do you think that would do us?

I saw that movie. It starred a young Natasha Henstridge. Seemingly normal, but secretly a horrible monster hell-bent on reproduction. Or "just another Saturday night" at some places.,

 

[sophiecentaur]

What if someday a space probe transmitted back the atomic structure of alien life?

A for Andromeda was a BBC TV series of the 60(?)s along those lines. Based on a Fred Hoyle book and starring Julie Christie as the monster. Quaint, of course.

 

[jim mcnamara]

I'm pretty sure you would never survive consuming anything synthesized from Polonium, the KGB's favorite assassination tool. A small speck on a dinner plate does the job.

In the same vein: Did you know that
https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/89/actinium
glows blue in the dark because it is extremely radioactive? If I remember correctly, when placed in an open container, Astatine slowly vaporizes at room temperature to create a room sized death trap.

Acid Canyon disposal site in Los Alamos is an interesting example of consequences of disposal of these kinds of nasty elements...

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2020/05/f75/AcidPuebloFactSheet.pdf

The point is: you cannot safely ingest some elements even in tiny quantities, let alone get close enough to whip up a Polonium-salted omelet.

 

[pinball1970]

I'm pretty sure you would never survive consuming anything synthesized from Polonium, the KGB's favorite assassination tool. A small speck on a dinner plate does the job.

In the same vein: Did you know that
https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/89/actinium
glows blue in the dark because it is extremely radioactive? If I remember correctly, when placed in an open container it slowly vaporizes at room temperature to create a room sized death trap.

Acid Canyon disposal site in Los Alamos is an interesting example of consequences of disposal of these kinds of nasty elements...

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2020/05/f75/AcidPuebloFactSheet.pdf

The point is: you cannot safely ingest some elements even in tiny quantities, let alone get close enough to whip up a Polonium-salted omelet.

Mercury, lead and Chromium not that great for the metabolism either.

 

[BillTre]

Methylmercury is a more toxic form. A drop will do ya.
I and my friends played around with metallic mercury as kids and some say I'm OK.

 

[phinds]

and some say I'm OK

Yeah, but the REST of us ...

 

[Algr]

And what good do you think that would do us?

Wow. Zero scientific curiosity on Physics Forums. Why exactly did we want to find alien life, anyway?

 

[pinball1970]

Wow. Zero scientific curiosity on Physics Forums. Why exactly did we want to find alien life, anyway?

The physicists on here are curious, they are trying to find out how the universe works. Is there a more scientifically curious bunch?
The other STEM guys, research community do the same and then there are students, techs and enthusiasts that try and find out about science already discovered. Also curious.

The title of your thread was a little strange then meandered a little bit then arrived at aliens and 'what if?'

With that in mind I thought the responses were positive.