Can you rip the space time fabric?

In summary, the conversation touches upon the concept of space-time fabric and the possibility of it being ripped or opened up. However, there is no concrete evidence or theory that supports such a notion. Some theories like string theory and general relativity suggest the possibility of topology changes, but there is no consensus on the nature of space-time and whether it is continuous or discrete. Overall, the concept of a "fabric" of space-time is not supported by modern physics theories.
  • #36


TCS said:
If you take the threads form a sheet, yuou have no sheet. If you take the waves from space, you have no space. However, it doesn't mean that the sheet has no physical reality.

What waves?.. what?

Troponin has a good point. You can debate all sorts of things, and the reason these debates keep popping up is because people keep trying to make claims without proof. Overconfidence is a bad thing in physics, I'll admit I sometimes find myself in the end needing to be corrected.

There are a lot of tangents developing, either they need to become new threads or we need stay on the same page.

"A rip in the fabric of space-time would be a place where energy couldn't exist. Its energy density would be zero and its rate of time would be infinite. Black holes have an energy density that increases without bound and a rate of time that aproaches zero." - TCS

I'd like to know what source led you to this, not because I believe it to be wrong, I'm just curious.
 
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  • #37


TCS said:
What you believe to be particles are just a convieninet way of mathematically describing wave interactions.

Yeah. It's a called a wave packet in QM. The superposition of the myriad wave functions generates essentially a localized phenomenon, i.e. a "particle." It's easier to think of a particle since we experience macroscopic "particles" in our everyday lives.
 
  • #38


TCS said:
If you read my earlier post, I explained what it would mean if the space time fabric was ripped. If you have an actual response to that post please give it instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks.

My post, by definition, was not an ad hominem attack against you.
I specifically stated that my post was NOT a specific attack against TCS, it just happened to be the first post I saw with the word "fabric" in it, a word I wanted to quote. If including the specific announcement that *This isn't a direct attack on TCS, I just "quoted" the first post I saw that contained the word "fabric." isn't enough to satisfy you, I'll make sure to send you a personal letter and bouquet of flowers for any future posts that you could misinterpret as being written for the purpose of attacking you...
 
  • #39


TCS said:
If you read my earlier post, I explained what it would mean if the space time fabric was ripped.

Space being described as some sort of fabric is just an analogy. It helps make the highly complex more easily understood. But it does not mean that you can then take that analogy and extrapolate back to the real world.

If I described the universe as an expanding balloon you would not then ask where the universe's spigot is, what gas it is full of or how thin the wall is.
 
  • #40


Troponin said:
My post, by definition, was not an ad hominem attack against you.
I specifically stated that my post was NOT a specific attack against TCS, it just happened to be the first post I saw with the word "fabric" in it, a word I wanted to quote.


If including the specific announcement that *This isn't a direct attack on TCS, I just "quoted" the first post I saw that contained the word "fabric." isn't enough to satisfy you, I'll make sure to send you a personal letter and bouquet of flowers for any future posts that you could misinterpret as being written for the purpose of attacking you...


Sorry Man, my bad.
 
  • #41


TCS said:
Sorry Man, my bad.

No problem...I wanted to quote one of the OP's posts, but it was too many posts behind mine to show up in the "topic review" below the reply box. lol
I was hoping you wouldn't take me up on the flowers anyway...that would get expensive. lol
 
  • #42


benk99nenm312 said:
What waves?.. what?

Troponin has a good point. You can debate all sorts of things, and the reason these debates keep popping up is because people keep trying to make claims without proof. Overconfidence is a bad thing in physics, I'll admit I sometimes find myself in the end needing to be corrected.

There are a lot of tangents developing, either they need to become new threads or we need stay on the same page.

"A rip in the fabric of space-time would be a place where energy couldn't exist. Its energy density would be zero and its rate of time would be infinite. Black holes have an energy density that increases without bound and a rate of time that aproaches zero." - TCS

I'd like to know what source led you to this, not because I believe it to be wrong, I'm just curious.

From our perspective, a gravity well has a high energy density, compressed space, and a small rate of time. From the perspective of the gravity well, we have a low energy density, expanded space, and a high rate of time. From the perspective of a black hole, we are in a rip because nothing can exist long enough to reach us. Every wave will be red shifted out of existence.
 
  • #43


TCS said:
From the perspective of a black hole, we are in a rip because nothing can exist long enough to reach us. Every wave will be red shifted out of existence.

But this is all just rhetoric. There's no physical or mathematical basis for using the word "rip" in this context, except as techno-babble for Star Trek junkies.
 
  • #44


DaveC426913 said:
But this is all just rhetoric. There's no physical or mathematical basis for using the word "rip" in this context, except as techno-babble for Star Trek junkies.


As I see it, the energy density of mass extends beyond the position of the mass, so that the energy density of a black hole extends infinetly in an inverse square manner form the black hole even though all of the mass of the black hole is at a point. It is the gradient of the energy density that creates the appearence of gravitational acceleration. Also, the energy density provides a thickness to the universe. The extreme thinning of energy density is like a whole in space in the same sense that a worn thin part of a bed sheet is seen to have a hole. Although, it is a relative concept.

Accordingly, my idea for a "ripped space force field" is to locally redistribute the energy density such that all of the energy density in one region of space is displaced into the adjacent region which creates a sort of rip in space, since it creates a large energy density gradient that causes particles to gravitationally accelerate away from the gap such that almost no energy would flow through the energy density gap.

I don't actually know of any way to redistribute energy density. However, I believe that "gravity waves" would be the mechanism even though I don't know how they could be genertated and controlled.

However, we know that space and time can be stretched and that stretching space time changes what it means to move in a straight line.
 
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  • #45


TCS said:
As I see it, the energy density of mass extends beyond the position of the mass, so that the energy density of a black hole extends infinetly in an inverse square manner form the black hole even though all of the mass of the black hole is at a point. It is the gradient of the energy density that creates the appearence of gravitational acceleration. Also, the energy density provides a thickness to the universe. The extreme thinning of energy density is like a whole in space in the same sense that a worn thin part of a bed sheet is seen to have a hole. Although, it is a relative concept.

Accordingly, my idea for a "ripped space force field" is to locally redistribute the energy density such that all of the energy density in one region of space is displaced into the adjacent region which creates a sort of rip in space, since it creates a large energy density gradient that causes particles to gravitationally accelerate away from the gap such that almost no energy would flow through the energy density gap.

I don't actually know of any way to redistribute energy density. However, I believe that "gravity waves" would be the mechanism even though I don't know how they could be genertated and controlled.

However, we know that space and time can be stretched and that stretching space time changes what it means to move in a straight line.

All you are really saying, once you simplify the language, is that you believe a "rip in the fabric of spacetime" to be a point in space where all energy is accelerated away, causing spacetime to stretch away from a particular point in all directions. Spacetime does not "break", it can be relatively stretched or compressed, but not broken.
 
  • #46


The problem lies with what you call a rip. Since such a concept does not exist amongst physicists, it is open to interpretation. If there is a universal definition for a "rip in the fabric of spacetime", probably defined by a science fiction writer, then we must find it. If everyone (no I'm not picking out anyone) has a different interpretation for the same words, then we will be discussing not the issue, but the interpretations, and since no interpretation would be wrong, the discussion would be pointless.
 
  • #47


benk99nenm312 said:
The problem lies with what you call a rip. Since such a concept does not exist amongst physicists, it is open to interpretation. If there is a universal definition for a "rip in the fabric of spacetime", probably defined by a science fiction writer, then we must find it. If everyone (no I'm not picking out anyone) has a different interpretation for the same words, then we will be discussing not the issue, but the interpretations, and since no interpretation would be wrong, the discussion would be pointless.

What about throwing something in about a region not being simply connected?
 
  • #48


Brian Greene says in FABRIC OF THE COSMOS (2004), page 467:

(maybe this discussion belongs in Beyond the standard model)

No one knows whether such tears in space are allowed by the laws of physics. Work with which I've been involved in string theory has shown that certain kinds of tears are possible, but so far we have no idea whther these rips might be relevant to the creation of wormholes..."

(page 386)
My own work with Andrew Strominger and David Morrison showed that a brane can wrap itself around the spherical portion of a Calabi-Yau shape ...we were able to show.. a portion of space (can) tear open-space itself can rip apart- while the wrapped brane ensures that there are no catstrophic consequences..."

This also the basic idea of Roger Penrose...There is a brief discussion of such a cosmic censorship hypothesis here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_censorship_hypothesis
 
  • #49


TCS sorry for all the flack you took for helping me, but maybe vanadium 50, troponing etc.are right, I'm only a star trek junky, and should take this forum more seriously.
Science more than ficction.
Although,TCS,you held your own my man- or gal-!

So now that the tread is sleeping again,that idea of "thiningh of space" seems far more complicated to expand even in principle than the " ripping of the spacetime fabric".

As I understand you need something very, very heavy to create a gravity wave,and it would only be radial, and would't you have to be in the center to use it?, but I suspect you have a clever idea and are weary to voice it here ;-}

The idea for a force field I first took from Brian Greene's book as Naty1 points out,
where Greene et al as well as Witten had shown that a ripping of space was "possible", and expanded the idea by using the Casimir efect as the posible engine to start and control the "ripping" and the brane itself as the inhibitor for the propagation of said " rip"
Thus the "rip" or brane or force field could be used as a vane, or a plane or the like, and could build a complex structure as needed.
 
  • #50


I've been reading this whole thread, having a good time. As long as one defines the constrictions I find it perfectly alright to indulge in some imagination. What would life be only using logic?

A Borg collective?

Anyway, the fabric of 'space and the fabric of 'time' I've seen a lot of, and use it myself at times. It's a easy way of describing one, or more, 'dimensions' without falling into the aether well, sort of :)

What I understand that Einstein saw space as was something defined by 'gravity'. Without 'gravity' there would be no metric to discuss. So, assuming that this is right and then considering 'space', a 'rip' should then mean that the gravitational potential would be gone from that area. But if 'gravity' also is what creates a 'space'? What would that leave?
==

Alternatively, if 'gravity' is coupled to, but not the exact same as, invariant mass (or energy) how would that work? Could we then have a infinite 'gravity' inside that 'rip', now assuming that SpaceTime constricts instead of 'create' gravity..
 
  • #51


IttyBittyBit said:
Exactly! the resulting object would be homeomorphic to a torus. But you have the additional 'sew' operation going on here, so it's not the same as just punching a hole in a sphere. The reason I brought this up is because while you and I may know what we are talking about, the OP might not, and thus might get confused about this.



It wasn't clear from context at all. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I thought you were talking about solid objects, not surfaces.
Actually, you won't find the term 'doughnut' used much in math books. But still, people in math circles do use the term, and they usually take it to mean a 'filled' torus. Also, you used the word 'sphere' correctly. The solid interior would be called a ball, not a sphere.

About the string-theory part, I won't comment. I don't understand cohomology yet (even though I'm trying to!) so I don't think I'm qualified to express an opinion about string theory.

This approach was known in ancient Greece:

Euripides
Eumenides

:tongue2:
 
<h2>1. Can you actually rip the space time fabric?</h2><p>While it is a popular concept in science fiction, the idea of physically ripping the space time fabric is not supported by current scientific understanding. The space time fabric, also known as the fabric of space-time, is a theoretical framework used to explain the relationship between space and time. It is not a tangible material that can be ripped or torn like fabric in our everyday lives.</p><h2>2. Is it possible to create a black hole by ripping the space time fabric?</h2><p>No, it is not possible to create a black hole by ripping the space time fabric. Black holes are formed from the collapse of massive stars, and their formation is not related to the concept of ripping the space time fabric. The space time fabric is a theoretical construct that helps us understand the behavior of gravity and the curvature of space-time.</p><h2>3. Can ripping the space time fabric cause time travel?</h2><p>Currently, there is no scientific evidence to suggest that ripping the space time fabric could lead to time travel. Time travel is a popular concept in science fiction, but it remains a topic of speculation and is not supported by scientific theories or experiments. The space time fabric is a mathematical model used to describe the relationship between space and time, and it does not have the ability to cause time travel.</p><h2>4. What would happen if the space time fabric was ripped?</h2><p>Since the space time fabric is not a physical entity, it cannot be ripped or torn. However, if we consider the hypothetical scenario of the space time fabric being ripped, it would likely have catastrophic consequences for the universe. The fabric of space-time is essential for the functioning of the universe, and any major disruption to it would have far-reaching effects on the laws of physics and the structure of the universe.</p><h2>5. Can we manipulate the space time fabric?</h2><p>While we cannot physically manipulate the space time fabric, we can use mathematical equations and theories to understand and predict its behavior. Scientists have been able to manipulate the fabric of space-time in theoretical models, such as the theory of relativity, to explain the behavior of gravity and the movement of objects in the universe. However, this manipulation is done through mathematical calculations and not through physical means.</p>

1. Can you actually rip the space time fabric?

While it is a popular concept in science fiction, the idea of physically ripping the space time fabric is not supported by current scientific understanding. The space time fabric, also known as the fabric of space-time, is a theoretical framework used to explain the relationship between space and time. It is not a tangible material that can be ripped or torn like fabric in our everyday lives.

2. Is it possible to create a black hole by ripping the space time fabric?

No, it is not possible to create a black hole by ripping the space time fabric. Black holes are formed from the collapse of massive stars, and their formation is not related to the concept of ripping the space time fabric. The space time fabric is a theoretical construct that helps us understand the behavior of gravity and the curvature of space-time.

3. Can ripping the space time fabric cause time travel?

Currently, there is no scientific evidence to suggest that ripping the space time fabric could lead to time travel. Time travel is a popular concept in science fiction, but it remains a topic of speculation and is not supported by scientific theories or experiments. The space time fabric is a mathematical model used to describe the relationship between space and time, and it does not have the ability to cause time travel.

4. What would happen if the space time fabric was ripped?

Since the space time fabric is not a physical entity, it cannot be ripped or torn. However, if we consider the hypothetical scenario of the space time fabric being ripped, it would likely have catastrophic consequences for the universe. The fabric of space-time is essential for the functioning of the universe, and any major disruption to it would have far-reaching effects on the laws of physics and the structure of the universe.

5. Can we manipulate the space time fabric?

While we cannot physically manipulate the space time fabric, we can use mathematical equations and theories to understand and predict its behavior. Scientists have been able to manipulate the fabric of space-time in theoretical models, such as the theory of relativity, to explain the behavior of gravity and the movement of objects in the universe. However, this manipulation is done through mathematical calculations and not through physical means.

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