Catholic guy trying to get Kerry ex-communicated from the Catholic church.

[loseyourname]

Christian ethics are so mixed up, anyway. Where would the US be if we "turned the other cheek" every time we were attacked? We'd either be a British or Japanese colony. Instead, the Christian Coalition is more concerned with not granting civil rights, outlawing the morning-after pill, repealing campaign finance reforms, banning cloning, banning homosexual marriage, and giving taxpayer money to Christian charities. Nowhere on their agenda is the prerogative to convince Americans to "love their neighbors as they love themselves." They're so worried about what they think Christianity says we shouldn't do that they forget there are also a couple of not-so-bad ideas as to what we should do.

 

[Prometheus]

[

Perhaps you never realized it because that is not the statement I made.

The sanctity of life IS absolutely, irrefutably CENTRAL to Catholic belief. IF he doesn't believe that then...HE"S not practicing Cathocism. I THINK he should stop being a hypocrit and lead with honesty and integrity. That means, stop claiming to be a practicing Catholic to garner votes and be up front and honest that he can't support an entity that invalidates the right of a woman to her own body!

I am sorry that I seem to have misunderstood your meaning.

This is an interesting point. However, as numerous Americans seem to both consider themselves Catholic and to reject some of the churches teachings, then Kerry is not alone. Should they all quit the church? Perhaps you are right and it is hypocritical. I don't know enough about Catholicism to attempt to refute your statement.

 

[the number 42]

Nowhere on [the Christian Coalition's] agenda is the prerogative to convince Americans to "love their neighbors as they love themselves."

The main flaw in this idea is that many people don't love themselves, they love food, cars, holidays etc. So when they extend this 'love' to their neighbour they may be affronted that their neighbour doesn't appreciate the gesture. So the bottom line is 'love thineself' before you start spreading it around.

Its a bit like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Ever notice the cute way that children sometimes give presents to adults that the child themselves would like? They think that because they like The Cat in the Hat, you are going to love the Cat in the Hat keyring they have got for you.

And if your neighbour happens to hate themselves but love crack cocaine, don't be surprised if they're not interested in a big hug, a bible discussion, or a barbeque

 

[russ_watters]

I don't want this to get into a religious discussion...

Ironically, have never considered the discussion of Catholicism to have much to do with religion...

Specific rules are not important to faith as far as I'm concerned, and the Catholic church relies on symbolism less and less all the time (for example you can eat meat on Fridays, you can let the host touch your hands (the horror) and your teeth etc.)

Fair enough.

BUT publicly supporting the right to Abortion by a prominant politician undermines the authority of the Church and breaks numerous papal dictates,

To me, that's just it - like I asked above, does a politician's power make them different? I thought religion was all about faith. Two people both publicly state they support abortion. One has the power to enact laws legalizing it and one doesn't. To me (and I believe, to God), both are equally on the hook for their beliefs.

...and not even believing that you should be asking for absolution...

Did he actually say that?

but why should the Catholic church allow him to continue to use his Catholicism as a political plus while he is all the while undermining the church and breaking what they consider the "sanctity of life"?

To prove to their followers that they are, in fact, leaders in faith and not leaders in politics.

Personally, I think he would be far more honest if he were to say that he could not practice a religion that continues to ignore the rights of well over half its constituents...women. How can any modern man continue to support such a misogynistic religion. Big strike against Kerry the hypocrit.

I'm not clear on his particular take on the faith. He may or may not be a hypocrite. But I share your issues with the church.

That's true SelfAdjoint, but I think in regards to ex-communication in a "legal" sense is the vocalizing of his support for abortion rights.

'Religious law,' to me, is a contradiction in terms.

Since that is how Catholicism functions, it seems only natural that they would defend Catholicism against his attack.

Absolutely - because power is what is important to them, not faith.

Secondly, we're not talking about the bible. We are talking about Catholicism... [/irony]

Yet another issue I have with the Church.

For Reference:

Strikingly absent from early references is a clear definition on what is meant by "abortion". Contrary to their insistence, their own policy has changed.

Perhaps the answer here is for the Americans uncomfortable with the politics of the church to split off and form a new church...

 

[kat]

Ironically, have never considered the discussion of Catholicism to have much to do with religion...

Well, this thread is riddled with examples of confusing personal beliefs, biblical quotes and other religions views with those of the Catholic church. I just want to make it clear that the issue is none of these but...Catholicism and the requirements of beingallowed (or not allowed) to be an active reciever of communion is.

To me, that's just it - like I asked above, does a politician's power make them different? I thought religion was all about faith. Two people both publicly state they support abortion. One has the power to enact laws legalizing it and one doesn't. To me (and I believe, to God), both are equally on the hook for their beliefs.

Well, both may be guilty of sin but one may have a greater guilt in that he actively promoted abortion by creating an "open door" to do so. I think that the Catholic dictates actually allows for both to be excommunicated. Leading others astray and all that...

Did he actually say that?

Seeking absolution would mean that you cease or at least make an attempt to cease the action..he's basically stated the Catholic church should butt out and mind their own business...unfortunately, he's apparently forgot that the Catholic church views their responsibility to cover the "whole picture" so to speak.

To prove to their followers that they are, in fact, leaders in faith and not leaders in politics.

Well, as a Catholic he should know that's not what his religion dictates. Catholicism has always concerned itself with faith as well as actions including actions that lead others astray.

I'm not clear on his particular take on the faith. He may or may not be a hypocrite.

It's like being a member of an all purposefully all white club and claiming you're not racist...

'Religious law,' to me, is a contradiction in terms.

Then consider it "rules of membership" with consideration of their take on there being everlasting consequences.

Absolutely - because power is what is important to them, not faith.

Well, to be fair this may be true for some but not for others. I think that it is possible that there is a belief that there is an obligation to save their flock from everlasting damnation. Again, not my personal belief but a very Catholic one.

Yet another issue I have with the Church. Strikingly absent from early references is a clear definition on what is meant by "abortion". Contrary to their insistence, their own policy has changed.

Clarify please.

Perhaps the answer here is for the Americans uncomfortable with the politics of the church to split off and form a new church...

Well, I think that many have done this. Thus the huge movement for inter and non- denominational churchs and the loss of Catholic memberships.

 

[Njorl]

Lol, Huh? Catholics don't like the Vatican?

Yes, Kerry should be ex-communicated if he continues to support stances that are against the tenents of the Catholic faith. Being ex-communicated means being denied communion. It does not mean that he is not allowed to go to church. On another note, why the hell would he want to continue to be a Catholic and receive communion if he doesn't agree with the catholic faith?
It's completely hypocritical. The same goes for other people who declare their faith as Catholic and yet don't even believe in the basic tenents of the religion. Who's kidding who?

Supporting a woman's right to choose is not inconsistant with the Catholic faith. The Catholic doctrine states that abortion is a serious sin. Does it state that supporting the freedom to choose is a sin? Many things are sin according to Catholic doctrine that are not illegal. Protecting the rights of the people to choose to engage in that activity is not necessarily abrogating doctrine. Eating meat on Lenten Fridays is a sin. Should all Catholic polititians legislate to prevent it? The standard that Kerry is being held to would certainly eliminate every Catholic from public office if it were applied in any but a cynical, political manner. That is why Karl Rove has stated that this standard should only apply to John Kerry.

Njorl

 

[Njorl]

I grew up Catholic. I was actually a true believer until about 14 or so, then broke completely at 18. I still consider myself "ethnically Catholic". I think outsiders drastically overestimate the power of the Church heirarchy in the US. It has been my experience that Catholics are fond of the Pope, but are not very interested in anything he has to say. Bishops are either ignored or detested. I have never heard a fellow Catholic say a nice thing about a bishop or Cardinal in the US.

Njorl

 

[kat]

Supporting a woman's right to choose is not inconsistant with the Catholic faith. The Catholic doctrine states that abortion is a serious sin. Does it state that supporting the freedom to choose is a sin? Many things are sin according to Catholic doctrine that are not illegal. Protecting the rights of the people to choose to engage in that activity is not necessarily abrogating doctrine. Eating meat on Lenten Fridays is a sin. Should all Catholic polititians legislate to prevent it? The standard that Kerry is being held to would certainly eliminate every Catholic from public office if it were applied in any but a cynical, political manner. That is why Karl Rove has stated that this standard should only apply to John Kerry.

Njorl

I gave several references to cannon law within this thread, perhaps you would prefer to rebut those rather then just offer your opinion.

What exactly is it that Karl Rove has stated?

 

[kat]

I grew up Catholic. I was actually a true believer until about 14 or so, then broke completely at 18. I still consider myself "ethnically Catholic". I think outsiders drastically overestimate the power of the Church heirarchy in the US. It has been my experience that Catholics are fond of the Pope, but are not very interested in anything he has to say. Bishops are either ignored or detested. I have never heard a fellow Catholic say a nice thing about a bishop or Cardinal in the US.

Njorl

Lol, your family must be less loyal Catholics then mine and you must live in a less Catholic area... :surprise:

 

[russ_watters]

Clarify please.

First hit on a google: http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/articles/history.asp

Most people believe that the Roman Catholic Church’s position on abortion has remained unchanged for two thousand years. Not true. Church teaching on abortion has varied continually over the course of its history. There has been no unanimous opinion on abortion at any time. While there has been constant general agreement that abortion is almost always evil and sinful, the church has had difficulty in defining the nature of that evil. Members of the Catholic hierarchy have opposed abortion consistently as evidence of sexual sin, but they have not always seen early abortion as homicide. Contrary to conventional wisdom, the "right-to-life" argument is a relatively recent development in church teaching. The debate continues today.

I think outsiders drastically overestimate the power of the Church heirarchy in the US. It has been my experience that Catholics are fond of the Pope, but are not very interested in anything he has to say. Bishops are either ignored or detested. I have never heard a fellow Catholic say a nice thing about a bishop or Cardinal in the US.

Just to make sure I'm not giving a false impression here, I don't think the Vatican has much influence. Kerry is a case-in-point. My perception is simply that that fact pisses the Vatican off. It is also my opinion that control, not salvation, is the driving force behind Catholic law. And also, since Catholic law is passed by humans that law could be (and has, in many cases, proven itself to be) flawed. Thus, disagreeing on certain laws is not blasphemy.

 

[motai]

I am all for relgion - it can be a great source of solace etc - but let's not turn elections into weddings, where we need to have it dressed up to be palatable. I wouldn't want a politician to be the Pope, and we really don't need our political leaders to leak their half-baked self-serving religious insights - I am talking Bush, Blair, and anyone else who using religion as an excuse for political ends - into their secular lives. Kerrie has summed it up, and really we need say no more - just look at history.

I thought this entire issue was settled by the time John F. Kennedy was elected... a Catholic in office does not mean that the country will be run by the Pope.

 

[loseyourname]

Its a bit like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Ever notice the cute way that children sometimes give presents to adults that the child themselves would like? They think that because they like The Cat in the Hat, you are going to love the Cat in the Hat keyring they have got for you.

You know, I always thought the same thing. What does love your neighbor as you love yourself mean if you don't love yourself. I think it's more than obvious that many people do not. Regarding the golden rule, should a person with a death wish go around killing everyone he sees?

This is exactly why I say Christian ethics don't make any sense, and should have absolutely nothing to do with how legislation is written or passed in this country.