Causal Structure of Metric Prop.: Matrix Size Differs

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the causal structure of a specific metric in an ##n + 1##-dimensional space-time, particularly focusing on the relationship between the metrics ##g## and ##^2g##. Participants explore the implications of these metrics on causal vectors and the transformation properties of vector fields in different coordinate systems.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that any causal vector for the metric ##g## is also a causal vector for the metric ##^2g##, suggesting that light-cones for ##^2g## can illustrate the causal structure of ##(\mathcal{M},g)##.
  • Another participant argues that the dimensions of ##^2g## and ##g## are not different, as they should be considered tensors in ##n+1## dimensions, and discusses the implications of the positive semi-definiteness of ##h##.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding the notation of vectors, particularly questioning why ##x^\mu \partial_\mu## is not considered a vector field and discussing the transformation properties of such expressions.
  • There is a contention regarding the correctness of transformation rules for vector components, with one participant asserting that the transformation does not require linearity, while another challenges this assertion with counterexamples.
  • Participants provide examples from different coordinate systems, such as polar coordinates and a one-dimensional manifold, to illustrate their points about vector fields and transformation laws.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion contains multiple competing views, particularly regarding the nature of vector fields and the transformation properties of coordinates. There is no consensus on the correctness of the transformation rules or the implications of the metrics discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants express limitations in their understanding of the notation and transformation properties, indicating potential missing assumptions or dependencies on specific definitions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these transformations.

smoking-frog
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Proposition: Consider an ##n + 1##-dimensional metric with the following product structure:

$$ g=\underbrace{g_{rr}(t,r)\mathrm{d}r^2+2g_{rt}(t,r)\mathrm{d}t\mathrm{d}r+g_{tt}(t,r)\mathrm{d}t^2}_{:=^2g}+\underbrace{h_{AB}(t,r,x^A)\mathrm{d}x^A\mathrm{d}x^B}_{:=h} $$

where ##h## is a Riemannian metric in dimension ##n-1##. Then any causal vector for ##g## is also a causal vector for ##^2g##, and drawing light-cones for ##^2g## gives a good idea of the causal structure of ##(\mathcal{M},g)##.

I really don't understand this proposition. The metric tensor ##^2g## can be represented in a ##2\times 2## matrix, and ##g## corresponds to a ##(n+1) \times (n+1)## matrix. How can I then check ##\bigg(g(x^\mu, x^\nu)<0\bigg) \implies \bigg(\; ^2g(x^\mu, x^\nu)<0\bigg) ## for the same vector ##x=x^\mu \partial_\mu## if the dimension of the corresponding matrices is different?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Their dimensions are not different. ##^2g## and ##h## are metrics only on submanifolds of your space-time and it is here more relevant to consider them simply as tensors in ##n+1## dimensions. Obviously, neither ##^2g## nor ##h## are metric tensors on their own in the full space-time, but their sum ##g = {}^2g + h## is. However, ##h## is still positive semi-definite and so ##h(X,X) \geq 0## for any vector ##X## (you really should not use coordinates ##x^\mu## as arguments for your metric, the coordinates are not vectors). It follows that
$$
g(X,X) = {}^2g(X,X) + h(X,X) \geq {}^2g(X,X).
$$
Thus, if ##g(X,X) \leq 0##, then
$$
^2g(X,X) \leq g(X,X) \leq 0.
$$
 
Thanks!

Yeah, I forgot the basis vectors in the metric, that was a typo.
 
smoking-frog said:
Yeah, I forgot the basis vectors in the metric, that was a typo.

This was not my main issue. My main issue was that if ##x^\mu## are the coordinates, which is rather conventional, then ##x^\mu\partial_\mu## is not a vector field. You should therefore typically use some other notation for a general vector.
 
Orodruin said:
This was not my main issue. My main issue was that if ##x^\mu## are the coordinates, which is rather conventional, then ##x^\mu\partial_\mu## is not a vector field. You should therefore typically use some other notation for a general vector.

Why is ##x^\mu \partial_\mu## not a vector field?
 
smoking-frog said:
Why is ##x^\mu \partial_\mu## not a vector field?
Because it does not transform correctly under coordinate transformations.

If you just look at a particular coordinate system, it might define a vector field (at least on that coordinate patch), but that vector field will generally not take the form ##x'^{\mu'}\partial'_{\mu'}## in a different coordinate system.

Edit: Furthermore, it is not an arbitrary vector field, which is really what you want in this case.

Edit 2: To illustrate. Consider the position vector in 2D Euclidean space. It can be written ##\vec x = x^i \vec e_i## in Cartesian coordinates. However, it is not equal to ##r\vec e_r + \theta \vec e_\theta## in polar coordinates.
 
$$x'=x'^\nu \frac{\partial}{\partial x'^\nu}$$

Then
$$ \frac{\partial}{\partial x'^\nu}=\frac{\partial x^\mu}{\partial x'^\nu}\frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu}\\
x'^\alpha=\frac{\partial x'^\alpha}{\partial x^\beta}x^\beta$$
Then
$$x'=x'^\nu \frac{\partial}{\partial x'^\nu}=\frac{\partial x'^\alpha}{\partial x^\beta}x^\beta \frac{\partial x^\mu}{\partial x'^\alpha}\frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu}=\delta^\mu_{\:\:\beta} x^\beta \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu}=x^\mu \frac{\partial}{\partial x^\mu} $$

What am I missing here?
 
smoking-frog said:
$$x'^\alpha=\frac{\partial x'^\alpha}{\partial x^\beta}x^\beta$$
...
What am I missing here?
This is not correct unless ##x'## is a linear function of ##x##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: strangerep and dextercioby
Orodruin said:
This is not correct unless ##x'## is a linear function of ##x##.

Are you sure? I see no assumption that the transformation need be linear in the derivation of this transformation.

34937_Screen_Shot_2018-08-31_at_18.13.26.png
 

Attachments

  • 34937_Screen_Shot_2018-08-31_at_18.13.26.png
    34937_Screen_Shot_2018-08-31_at_18.13.26.png
    21.5 KB · Views: 749
  • #10
smoking-frog said:
Are you sure?

I only wrote a textbook with a chapter on the subject. I am pretty sure. :rolleyes:

I see no assumption that the transformation need be linear in the derivation of this transformation.

View attachment 230082
What you attached is the transformation rule for vector components. The coordinates are not components of a vector.

Edit: As a counter example, consider the one-dimensional manifold ##\mathbb R## with coordinates ##x## and ##y = x^3##. Then
$$
y = x^3 \neq \frac{dy}{dx} x = 3x^3.
$$
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: strangerep
  • #11
Orodruin said:
As a counter example, consider the one-dimensional manifold ##\mathbb R## with coordinates ##x## and ##y = x^3##. Then
$$
y = x^3 \neq \frac{dy}{dx} x = 3x^3.
$$

Those are just the coefficients, though, aren't they? ##\big( x^i \partial_i = x'^j \partial'_j \big)## does not imply ##x^i=x'^i##.
 
  • #12
smoking-frog said:
Those are just the coefficients, though, aren't they? ##\big( x^i \partial_i = x'^j \partial'_j \big)## does not imply ##x^i=x'^i##.
I literally took your transformation law and showed you that, in the simplest case, it would mean that 3=1. You don't have a problem with that?
 
Last edited:
  • #13
Also consider the case of polar coordinates in two-dimensional Euclidean space. It is not true that ##x\partial_x + y\partial_y = r \partial_r + \theta \partial_\theta##, which would be the case if the coordinates were actually the components of a vector. For any coordinate system, there exists a vector field that has this property, but those vector fields will generally not be the same vector fields. Indeed, it is true that ##x\partial_x + y\partial_y = r \partial_r##. This has the form ##x^i\partial_i## in Cartesian coordinates, but certainly not in polar coordinates.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: strangerep and vanhees71

Similar threads

  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 62 ·
3
Replies
62
Views
7K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K