News Changing Views on Iraq War: From Support to Opposition?

[Informal Logic]

Ultimately, I'm not as concerned about whether it is an Islamic theocracy, as I am whether they are anti-American. If this happens, the Bushies should be...suggestions?

If Iraq becomes anti west/US, the Bushies should be:

1) Publicly ridiculed (tar and feathers maybe?)
2) Exiled
3) Imprisoned
4) Executed

Options 1-3 would allow for continued influence, and option 4 would probably make them into martyrs. So maybe the cutting out of tongues/hands, lobotomies, or insane asylums where they will never be seen or heard from again. Can we start with Jerry Falwell?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I really don't want to argue this, if you believe the Iraqi people are better off today than they were 15 years ago you are mistaken.

Funny enough Saddam officially came into power approximately 15 years ago. Only a coincidence I suppose.

Saddams Iraq was not as bad as we have been led to believe. He was a ruthless dictator, but the reason he stayed in power was because he was also an effective leader. Iraq before desert storm was a modern, progressive, secular nation. And please, don't call me a Saddam supporter, I am just stating the obvious here.

Do we need to be reminded of how Saddam made Iraq a unified progressive country? Gassing Kurds, destroying towns, taking away their water, holding guns to their heads while they vote him back in office... yup, what a wonderful world.

 

[Art]

If Iraq becomes anti west/US, the Bushies should be:

1) Publicly ridiculed (tar and feathers maybe?)
2) Exiled
3) Imprisoned
4) Executed

Options 1-3 would allow for continued influence, and option 4 would probably make them into martyrs. So maybe the cutting out of tongues/hands, lobotomies, or insane asylums where they will never be seen or heard from again. Can we start with Jerry Falwell?

I think the punishment should fit the crime so how about forcing them to live in an Islamist theocracy for 20 years or so?

 

[Smurf]

Funny enough Saddam officially came into power approximately 15 years ago. Only a coincidence I suppose.

Saddam formally succeeded in 79, but was already de facto ruler by mid 70s anyways.

Do we need to be reminded of how Saddam made Iraq a unified progressive country? Gassing Kurds, destroying towns, taking away their water, holding guns to their heads while they vote him back in office... yup, what a wonderful world.

Compulsory Free Education, Supporting families of soldiers, free hospitalization for everyone (including women), subsidies to farmers, built roads, promoted non-oil industries (so they didn't have a dependant economy), brought electricity to nearly every city in Iraq. UNESCO didn't give him an award for nothing.

Like it or not, genocide simply didn't happen until the US got involved.

 

[Skyhunter]

Funny enough Saddam officially came into power approximately 15 years ago. Only a coincidence I suppose.

July 16, 1979 he officially took over. However President Bakr was weak (sound like any current president you know?) and Saddam was the real power in the Baath party from 1975.

Do we need to be reminded of how Saddam made Iraq a unified progressive country? Gassing Kurds, destroying towns, taking away their water, holding guns to their heads while they vote him back in office... yup, what a wonderful world.

Like I said I don't want argue this point because he was a ruthless dictator who committed crimes against humanity. He was especially brutal to the Shia and Kurds. What he did to the wetlands in the Tigris Euphrates valley was unconscionable.

My point however is that the Iraqi people have suffered, and are suffering now because of US policies toward Iraq these past 15 years. I never said he was good for Iraq, I was just saying that as the horrors of the past fade, and stories are retold, the Iraqi people may begin to yearn for the old days when they had food, water, and electricity.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

July 16, 1979 he officially took over. However President Bakr was weak (sound like any current president you know?) and Saddam was the real power in the Baath party from 1975.

Yes, he was cementing his position as the next leader of Iraq.

Like I said I don't want argue this point because he was a ruthless dictator who committed crimes against humanity. He was especially brutal to the Shia and Kurds. What he did to the wetlands in the Tigris Euphrates valley was unconscionable.

Why would you say that Saddam is not as bad as we have heard and then say you don't want to argue it?

My point however is that the Iraqi people have suffered, and are suffering now because of US policies toward Iraq these past 15 years. I never said he was good for Iraq, I was just saying that as the horrors of the past fade, and stories are retold, the Iraqi people may begin to yearn for the old days when they had food, water, and electricity.

Not just US policies. Several countries have exploited and abused Iraq.
Also there are plenty of people in this country that yearn for the old days when blacks and women had no rights. There's even, supposedly, a movement for an all out race war. Does that mean it was the wrong thing to do to give these people their rights? Does that mean that our country is any worse off now just because some people liked it better the way it was?

 

[Skyhunter]

Why would you say that Saddam is not as bad as we have heard and then say you don't want to argue it?

I said it because the media has only given us one side.

I don't want to argue it because it is like arguing for Saddam, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I admit that I don't really know what anyone here has heard, therefore my statement was inaccurate and I wish to retract it. I apologize to anyone I offended with my thoughtlessness.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I said it because the media has only given us one side.

I don't want to argue it because it is like arguing for Saddam, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I admit that I don't really know what anyone here has heard, therefore my statement was inaccurate and I wish to retract it. I apologize to anyone I offended with my thoughtlessness.

I'm not accusing you of arguing for Saddam. I made a similar argument once stating that we screwed Afghanistan by taking out the Taliban so I understand how you can make your argument while not necessarily supporting Saddam. I may pick apart your argument if I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in hearing what you have to say.

And no need for apologies, I'm not offended.

 

[AntonioChrist]

Investing in Iraq

I previously have supported Bush on the Iraq War.

But if this happens
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007112

and Iraq becomes a theocracy as it seems likely, I think I will have to join the anti-war camp. This would mean that we didn't fight for principles of any kind in Iraq but for a theocracy which is nearly as bad as Saddam's Iraq.

Your thoughts?

Hi, i have a friend with some contacts and money who is under the assumption that taking his pounds and business from England to Iraq is a good idea. To further elaborate the form of investment, my friend would like to establish an investment broker firm to engage in further investment, in an attempt to gain property and use it for developmental purposes.

I, myself, do not know much about the finer points of investment however i do understand some basic concepts and i feel my friend is trying to hard to make an impossible dream of financial fruitation occur. Due to my lack of objective knowledge in Iraq and its trends and economic patterns, is there any resources or economic papers to support my friends prediction that this will be a functional and rewarding business to attain? or perhaps contrary indications? I do not want to disprove him, quite the opposite, but i am aware of money wastage and he may incurr more of it than he deserves.

Regards

A.Christ

 

[Smurf]

Waaay to high a risk. There's no saying what Iraq is going to do in the near future. They have somewhat of socialist past, they might nationalize all industry in a couple weeks. If I were him I'd let iraq set a precedent for it's self before I decide to invest there.

 

[Art]

Hi, i have a friend with some contacts and money who is under the assumption that taking his pounds and business from England to Iraq is a good idea. To further elaborate the form of investment, my friend would like to establish an investment broker firm to engage in further investment, in an attempt to gain property and use it for developmental purposes.

I, myself, do not know much about the finer points of investment however i do understand some basic concepts and i feel my friend is trying to hard to make an impossible dream of financial fruitation occur. Due to my lack of objective knowledge in Iraq and its trends and economic patterns, is there any resources or economic papers to support my friends prediction that this will be a functional and rewarding business to attain? or perhaps contrary indications? I do not want to disprove him, quite the opposite, but i am aware of money wastage and he may incurr more of it than he deserves.

Regards

A.Christ

The economy in the north of the country in the Kurdish controlled areas is currently thriving and the political situation is very stable. Property prices there are rocketing due to sky high demand with major construction projects everywhere. So perhaps your friend is correct in terms of an investment opportunity.

Kurds Seek Economic Lift-Off with New Airport

By: Seb Walker

June 2, 2004

SULAIMANIYA, (Southern Kurdistan) (Reuters) - Hidden behind hills on a highway leading to the Iraqi town of Sulaimaniya, a futuristic glass and steel building is nearing completion against the unlikely backdrop of the rolling Kurdish countryside.

The terminal is the first stage in a nearly $40-million project to build Iraqi Kurdistan’s first commercial airport out of the airfield that in 1988 sent Iraqi planes to drop chemical weapons on the Kurds of Halabja killing more than 4,000 people.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~kurdistan3/3-6-04-kurds-economic-lift-airport.htm

Economic success

Take the town of Suleimaniya. Its skyline is dotted with cranes. Everywhere you look bulldozers are at work.

We can go where we like when we like, which is not possible in Baghdad or elsewhere in Iraq.

"Things are booming. The price of land is ridiculous. It's just going up and up and up," says businessman Bettin Saleh, who has two shops in a new mall.

"People have money, people are spending it, they feel it's safe to spend - and build for the future."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4145110.stm

Or there are always the rich niches

Amid blasts, Iraq glass salesmen smile
Wednesday 17 August 2005, 15:12 Makka Time, 12:12 GMT

Salesmen travel around replacing shattered car glass

Amid the destruction wrought by car bombs over the past two years in Iraq, there are some merchants who, by dint of their trade, have done well out of the mayhem, and glaziers fit that profit-from-misfortune group.

 

[AntonioChrist]

retort to 1984 comment

If Iraq becomes anti west/US, the Bushies should be:

1) Publicly ridiculed (tar and feathers maybe?)
2) Exiled
3) Imprisoned
4) Executed

Options 1-3 would allow for continued influence, and option 4 would probably make them into martyrs. So maybe the cutting out of tongues/hands, lobotomies, or insane asylums where they will never be seen or heard from again. Can we start with Jerry Falwell?

I haven't read that particular book, however i have read Orwell, is that statement to justify Bush or is it a satirical rhetoric? Also are those statements supposed to be taken as the truth or as null-truths as it were?

 

[vanesch]

Hi, i have a friend with some contacts and money who is under the assumption that taking his pounds and business from England to Iraq is a good idea.

It depends on the business. If it's selling explosive belts, there might be some business there

 

[AntonioChrist]

To Smurf

Waaay to high a risk. There's no saying what Iraq is going to do in the near future. They have somewhat of socialist past, they might nationalize all industry in a couple weeks. If I were him I'd let iraq set a precedent for it's self before I decide to invest there.

High risk it will be, i fear too high, he is neither a violent man nor terribly business/ cut throat orientated, a computer nerd with money burning through his pocket with muslim friends, not too sure he will be able to deal with the reality of a potentially volatile political and social climate.

Especially when there's millions at stake.

i know for a fact if i was a business man from Iraq, and he was using my money in a high risk venture which went pear shaped i would not have far to look or go to exact a personal Jihad on his arse.

I think i should research more and have a basis for argument before i have an opinion to express.

 

[AntonioChrist]

thanks dude, went to site looks like a good source for info

The economy in the north of the country in the Kurdish controlled areas is currently thriving and the political situation is very stable. Property prices there are rocketing due to sky high demand with major construction projects everywhere. So perhaps your friend is correct in terms of an investment opportunity. http://home.cogeco.ca/~kurdistan3/3-6-04-kurds-economic-lift-airport.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4145110.stm

Or there are always the rich niches

thanks dude, went to site looks like a good source for info

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

It was worse. Can you imagine living in a system where you knew you could be shot anytime on the arbitrary whims of one man?

Are you talking about Iraq or London?