China's Historic First Human Space Mission: A New Space Race?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Zero: I do prefer not to buy things made in China.
FZ+:They are evil, if I may use such a broad and vague term, and we don't know that they aren't planning to put nukes up there.

Of course they are...after all, America plans on taking over the world, so why wouldn't some other country want to take a shot at it?

 

[Jonathan]

I sense a hint of sarcasm...but in all truth a capitalist economy will eventually die if it does not get the expansion it craves. But we shouldn't take over the world. We should take over the uninhabited areas of outer space. Now Zero, just in case you meant that literally, since one man can only control (to some extent) the US for 8 years, and that's not enough to take over the world, esp. if the people don't want to (because then they will impeach him), then the US cannot possibly be planning to take over the world. Unless of course there is a massive conspiracy, in which case I better shut up before 'they' read this.
Now, back to the Chinese and outer space. First, what new perspectives might they bring? What new technologies? Actually, if Clinton did, as some alledge, sell military secrets to the Chinese for campaign money, then how much of this is really their accomplishment? If it is true, can they really bring much of anything to the table, since they would probably have only incomplete information, and not everything we know?

 

[Zero]

Wow...weird Clinton lies and a lack of understanding of how government works...cool! Dude, no lie, the plan to take over the world is currently under way, right out in the open, disguised in mildly complicated language. And, the folks in charge of it belong to no one administration, but exist in the think tanks which advise political parties. Do a little reading on PNAC, and read their views with my frame of mind as a guide.
And, even if China starts with the technology from other countries, they are liable to do something different, simply because their needs, resources, and goals will be different.

 

[russ_watters]

Ahh yes, the old excruciatingly slow (or depending on your timeframe, backwards) plan to take over the world.

I'll be ok though because I'm a Stonecutter and a Skull.

In any case, this is a new conspiracy theory to me. Does this one parallel some of the dozen or so others or just take over where they left off (faded away)? Every American president has one, then there are the ones that are more general (the slow-moving, multi-century conspiracies).

Edit:
Ok, after reading the WEBSITE, I'd say this can be categorized as a trans-Reagan era conspiracy theory. Medium timeframe.

edit:
Or did you mean http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~ryanm6/webring.htm PNAC?

 

[Nereid]

China - size of the private sector

Njorl, quoting some 1993 data on the state/private composition of the Chinese economy:
State owned and controlled production is 34%
State owned collectively controlled production is 10%
Local government controlled production is 30%
Individually owned pruduction is 11%
Publicly traded production is 14%

I found the following from an article in The Economist, dated 6 April, 2000:

So just how well has the private sector done since its first, tentative and often disguised reappearance? Splendidly, by all accounts; but measuring its size is tricky. In the absence of hard data, estimates have depended largely on analysts’ views about China’s prospects at any particular moment. At the height of the euphoria about China in the early 1990s, some observers—including The Economist—thought the private sector might already account for as much as 75% of the economy. That was far too optimistic, and the mood may have swung too violently in the opposite direction: some people now put the private sector at only 25% of total output. More considered work by the China Economic Quarterly (CEQ), an independent publication, puts the private sector somewhere between those two extremes, at a little over half of the economy. If true, that would still be a considerable accomplishment for a form of ownership that two decades ago did not exist.

The article goes on to examine each sector in some detail - farming, industry and construction, and services; each has its own characteristics, and the article concludes that the private sector will continue to expand, with the state likely to reserve certain industries for itself.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Ahh yes, the old excruciatingly slow (or depending on your timeframe, backwards) plan to take over the world.

I'll be ok though because I'm a Stonecutter and a Skull.

In any case, this is a new conspiracy theory to me. Does this one parallel some of the dozen or so others or just take over where they left off (faded away)? Every American president has one, then there are the ones that are more general (the slow-moving, multi-century conspiracies).

Edit:
Ok, after reading the WEBSITE, I'd say this can be categorized as a trans-Reagan era conspiracy theory. Medium timeframe.

edit:
Or did you mean http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~ryanm6/webring.htm PNAC?

You're cute, Russ...and using the general conservative spin technique of dismissing everything in order to avoid serious thought.

 

[GENIERE]

If Zero’s infamous one-liners are indicative of serious thought, then Russ’s posts must be considered literary masterpieces.

You're cute, Russ...and using the general conservative spin technique of dismissing everything in order to avoid serious thought.

 

[Mercator]

I live in China. I have seen the evolution since 1988 and it's spectacular, not only economicaly. The space program is another peak in the rapid development of China. The design of the cylindrical capsule was based on the Russian Soyuz, I don't think that Clinton had much to do with it, he preferred the cigar form I was told. Anyway, it is without doubt true that they have used existing technology. So what? Remember Wernher Von Braun? This also sheds a light on the political side of this issue. If it was OK that a Nazi who ACTUALLY helped Hitler to try to fulfill his dream of world domination to help the Americans develop their space program, then what is wrong with the Chinese trying to get in space? I consider it a good thing. China will gain confidence and become a real part of the rest of the world. Their emerging power is needed to restore the balance in the world so that some countries will stop invading others for fake reasons.

The economic development of China also brings along greater freedom. I will be the last one to say that China is a democracy and there is a long way to go. But if I look back on the last five years, there has been steady progress. It is a formidable task for the Chinese leader to turn a backward agrarian society into a prosperous and democratic one. I think the people who are responsible for the chaos in Iraq are not in a position to criticize the path the Chinese are taking. Jiang Zhemenin has been in power for 13 years, too long but much better than his predecessors. His power behind the screens is also much more limited. There are many more signs like this. You may call it Socialims, Communism , whatever, I call it a slow democratization process and I hope that the rest of the world will welcome it.

As for the Cannibalsim story: a few months ago an "artist" announced that he would eat a baby. There was an outrage in the Chinese press about this and the guy got arrested. Of course the internet soon after buzzed with stories and pictures about this and generalized the behaviour of this sick individual. This is a good example of the way China is treated in the minds of the people. Apparently we "whites" have still to deal with some strong prejudices about other "evil" races.

 

[GENIERE]

There’s no doubt that China is improving in all respects, but has a long way to go, especially re: individual rights. The only problem I have regarding their space program is the hypocrisy of the liberal posters on this forum. Obviously the enormous funding for the space program must reduce the availability of funds for social programs, as does the funding for the 3.5 million-man army. Presumably the large army is needed to quell rebellions in Tibet, and protect them from Nepal. The dams built on the Yangtze River were a damning offense to ecology in China, but no outcry from our green party. It seems that if a country has a communist or socialist government, it is immune to criticism from the lefties.

Question: What percent of the GNP of China is from Hong Kong?

As far as cannibalism, recently an AP news item related that a Chinese female physician and others ate aborted fetuses. She stated that it is better than allowing it to go to waste. AP indicated it was not uncommon. If I can find the item, I’ll post it.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by GENIERE
If Zero’s infamous one-liners are indicative of serious thought, then Russ’s posts must be considered literary masterpieces.

Care to add something? OR is this going to be one-liners all the way?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by GENIERE
There’s no doubt that China is improving in all respects, but has a long way to go, especially re: individual rights. The only problem I have regarding their space program is the hypocrisy of the liberal posters on this forum. Obviously the enormous funding for the space program must reduce the availability of funds for social programs, as does the funding for the 3.5 million-man army. Presumably the large army is needed to quell rebellions in Tibet, and protect them from Nepal. The dams built on the Yangtze River were a damning offense to ecology in China, but no outcry from our green party. It seems that if a country has a communist or socialist government, it is immune to criticism from the lefties.

Question: What percent of the GNP of China is from Hong Kong?

As far as cannibalism, recently an AP news item related that a Chinese female physician and others ate aborted fetuses. She stated that it is better than allowing it to go to waste. AP indicated it was not uncommon. If I can find the item, I’ll post it.

Nah, boss...we still hate China, and think they are mostly dirty rats. I thought hopefully we could take a time-out from politics and say horray for space exploration, but I guess not(Funny, though, how American countries still do plenty of trade with China, and no one complains about that either..boycott Walmart!)

 

[Adam]

Cannibalism: It happens in the USA too.

State owned production: What's the problem with it?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Adam
Cannibalism: It happens in the USA too.

State owned production: What's the problem with it?

Its EVIL! EVIL! EVIL! Mostly, because it doesn't allow(on paper) the right group of people to exploit the rest of the people for their personal profit. (In reality, poor people still get screwed over so that rich people can profit, so I don't know why anyone is complaining...)

 

[Mercator]

I like your one-liners, Zero. (In combination with your style we could call them Zero-liners ) I wish I had the gift to be so concise in my thoughts.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by GENIERE
If Zero’s infamous one-liners are indicative of serious thought, then Russ’s posts must be considered literary masterpieces.

You made my day, Geniere, thanks.

Nereid, I think another complexity in the economic picture that needs to be taken into account is the relative productivity of the private vs state industries. 50% of the GDP might come from private industries, but if those industries are twice as productive as the equivalent state (very conservative - it might be 4x as productive) industries it still means that only 1/3 (if I did the math right) of the industry in the country is private.

Mercator, my problem with the Chinese space program is the same as my problem with the Soviet and American ones during the Cold War - its goal is not space exploration, its a political/military demonstration of power. Aside from that, I wish them luck.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by russ_watters


Mercator, my problem with the Chinese space program is the same as my problem with the Soviet and American ones during the Cold War - its goal is not space exploration, its a political/military demonstration of power. Aside from that, I wish them luck.

Well, we can be optimistic...the law of unintended consequences can work both ways, you know?

 

[FZ+]

Zero: I do prefer not to buy things made in China.
FZ+:They are evil, if I may use such a broad and vague term, and we don't know that they aren't planning to put nukes up there.

Why, so that some guy working in a sweat shop has one less meal to bring home to his family. Jeez, what moral courage.

They are not evil. They may be ruthless, they may think things very differently to how the west thinks. But evil is an idiocy, a dangerous idiocy that clouds thought. The black and white concepts of evil have absolutely no meaning.

The world isn't going to disappear if you close your eyes, and the only way to achieve positive change is to engage with them diplomatically and scientifically.

How do you know the chinese are "evil"? Have you talked to them? Read their national newspapers? Understood them? How can you even presume to make such a judgement? No, all you can do is rabble on xenophobia.

The chinese aren't inhuman.

First, what new perspectives might they bring? What new technologies?

A perspective that isn't giving up.

Face it people. The old space powers are fading. The Russian space program is pretty much dead in the water. The US one is facing cutbacks after cutbacks, hiding before public aversion to necessary risks, and costs. The Europeans one... maybe, but they are fearful to commit themselves majorly. But for the chinese, this is just the beginning. The chinese public have only just got their taste of space, they have a sense of optimism that is missing in most of the other projects. In how many other countries do space launches get full blanket media coverage?

The chinese see space as a way forward. The US and other nations have an unique control now in what path it takes.

Mercator, my problem with the Chinese space program is the same as my problem with the Soviet and American ones during the Cold War - its goal is not space exploration, its a political/military demonstration of power.

Let us suppose now that the Chinese space program is based on ulterior motives. Have you looked at any chinese news sources regarding it - from the momentum built up on it, the program is unstoppable. What this all hinges on is how we react - if we embrace them opening, and continue the post-glasnost ideals of a free and undominatable space, then we can use this to sway the entire chinese nation. For then, they must inevitably entered into international cooperation, and by that we can guide them towards a more open china. Science crosses any barrier.

But if we act paraniocally, hide defensively, we can only encourage the more conservative members of the chinese government, and perhaps bring back the days of brinksmanship. That would be bad for everyone.

Obviously the enormous funding for the space program must reduce the availability of funds for social programs, as does the funding for the 3.5 million-man army.

Or, obviously it must reduce the funding for the 3.5 million-man army.

Presumably the large army is needed to quell rebellions in Tibet, and protect them from Nepal.

Might I remind you which decade we are living in?

The dams built on the Yangtze River were a damning offense to ecology in China, but no outcry from our green party. It seems that if a country has a communist or socialist government, it is immune to criticism from the lefties.

If you do not search, you do not find.

http://www.eca-watch.org/problems/china/2003_01_17_openletter.html

Need I relate the countless AI campaigns, the endless student demonstrations, the attacks on globalisation talks? Can you open your eyes for a moment before you talk such concentrated BS?

As far as cannibalism, recently an AP news item related that a Chinese female physician and others ate aborted fetuses. She stated that it is better than allowing it to go to waste. AP indicated it was not uncommon. If I can find the item, I’ll post it.

Why not post the number of gun deaths in the US and put it down as evidence that the US is "evil"? Or how about the prevalence of incest? Or pornography?

 

[Zero]

A few myths: 1) the American liberal supports China...this is a flat-out lie, as an affirmed liberasl, I have been disgusted by China's human rights record since I was a youngun...since Tienemen Square way back when. 2) Evil is in teh eye of the beholder. Russ suggested an American-led Iraq that would likely be only a few steps away from the "evil regime" of Saddam Hussein. In his own words, it would be run with an "Iron fist".

 

[Zero]

(BTW, I agree with some of Russ's ideas of how to rule Iraq...but I percieve them as deflating the idea of Saddam Hussein being a power-hungry madman...you sort of HAVE to clamp down on a created country like Iraq.)

 

[Nereid]

Adam: State owned production: What's the problem with it?

Well, for one thing, it's very wasteful of scarce resources (compared with capitalism), and tends to create some particularly pernicious forms of corruption. Of course, privately owned means of production generates different 'wrongs'

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Zero
Russ suggested an American-led Iraq that would likely be only a few steps away from the "evil regime" of Saddam Hussein. In his own words, it would be run with an "Iron fist".

Shame on you, Zero. Do I need to put that line back in my sig about lies?

And where did this come from anyway? It has no relevance whatsoever to this thread.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Shame on you, Zero. Do I need to put that line back in my sig about lies?

And where did this come from anyway? It has no relevance whatsoever to this thread.

You don't like when I post thing that you have said? WHy would you call that lying?

Ok, let me rephrase: "I consider Russ's idea of ruling Iraq with an iron fist(your term, Russ, if I'm not mistaken) to be only a few steps away from Saddam Hussein's method." Better? None of this is a lie, Russ, and I was using it to illustrate that 'evil' is subjective and relative.

 

[russ_watters]

Better, but still incomplete and you know it. A lie doesn't just have to be something you have changed, it can also be the things you leave out. Not a whole lot of context to be found in a 2 word quote. I also don't remember using the term "evil regime," though its possible I just forgot.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Better, but still incomplete and you know it. A lie doesn't just have to be something you have changed, it can also be the things you leave out. Not a whole lot of context to be found in a 2 word quote. I also don't remember using the term "evil regime," though its possible I just forgot.

Nope, evil regime was someone else...and, you are right, this is going WAY off topic...sorry, Russ, everyone else...

 

[drag]

Hmm... Don't know what you guys were talking
about for 4 pages, 'cause I weren't online for about
2 weeks. But, I just wan'na say - Go China !
And, I think it'll be great if this will eventually
result in a new space race and get us to Mars faster
with better technologies and much greater funding !
(By us - I mean mankind of course. )