Classical mechanics - small movements around equilibrium

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a system of two rotating cylinders connected by a spring, focusing on the small movements around the equilibrium position. The problem involves concepts from classical mechanics, particularly the dynamics of rotational motion and potential energy in a spring system.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the kinetic and potential energy expressions for the system, questioning how to express potential energy in terms of the defined variables. There is a focus on approximating small displacements and understanding the implications of initial spring stretch.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging with the problem, providing insights and corrections to each other's reasoning. Some have offered guidance on approximating terms and clarifying the effects of initial conditions on potential energy. Multiple interpretations of the spring's deformation and energy expressions are being explored.

Contextual Notes

There are constraints regarding the small angle approximations and the initial stretch of the spring, which are critical to the discussion. Participants are also considering the implications of the spring's unstretched length and how it affects the overall energy calculations.

skrat
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Homework Statement


Two cylinders, that can rotate around their vertical axis, are connected with a spring as shown in the picture. Moment of inertia ##J## is the same for both and they also have the same radius ##R##. Distance between the axes is ##L##. Spring with constant ##k## is ##d## long (not deformed). Also note that ##d<L-2R##. Describe small movements of the system.

Capturedd.JPG

Homework Equations


The Attempt at a Solution



Let's say that we will measure the rotation of left cylinder with ##\varphi ## and rotation of the right one with ##\vartheta ##.

The kinetic energy is than ##T=\frac{1}{2}J(\dot{\varphi }^2+\dot{\vartheta }^2)##

Now let's use notation ##\eta =\begin{bmatrix}
\varphi \\
\vartheta
\end{bmatrix}##, therefore kinetic energy is ##T=\frac{1}{2}\dot{\eta }^T \tilde{T}\eta ## where ##\tilde{T}=\begin{bmatrix}
1 & 0\\
0& 1
\end{bmatrix}##.

Now for kinetic energy we have to find out how much the spring deforms. Let's take a closer rook at the left cylinder:

The deformation here is ##x_1=R(1-cos\varphi )##. Using taylor expansion around equilibrium state which is ##\varphi =0## tells me that ##x_1=R(1-(1-\frac{1}{2}\varphi ^2))=\frac{R}{2}\varphi ^2##

The same goes for the other side, therefore ##x_2=\frac{R}{2}\vartheta ^2##

So potential energy of the system is ##V=\frac{1}{2}k(x_1+x_2)^2=\frac{kR^2}{8}(\varphi ^2+\vartheta ^2)^2##.

Now what worries me is that there is no way (or at least I don't see it) to write that last expression for ##V## using vector ##\eta ##.

Why do I want to do that? Because using ##det(V-\omega ^2T)=0## will tell me everything I need to know about this system.

Where did I get it wrong?
 
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You have left out the key things that cause the motion of the system.

The displacement of the end of the spring is not just ##x_1##, but also ##y_1 = R\sin\varphi##.

Also the spring has an initial potential energy, because it is stretched between the cylinders. The initial stretch is ##L - 2R - d##. When the system moves the length of the spring changes from ##L - 2R## to ##\sqrt{(L -2R + x_2 - x_1)^2 + (y_2-y_1)^2}##.

Since the question says the displacements are small, you can approximate everything to first order in ##\varphi## and ##\vartheta##.



Since the question sa
 
hmmm... Ok, if I approximate everything to first order, than

##x_1=R(1-cos\varphi )\doteq 0## and also ##x_2=R(1-cos\vartheta )\doteq 0## are both ##0##?

##y_1=Rsin\varphi \doteq R\varphi ## and ##y_2=Rsin\vartheta \doteq R\vartheta ##.

Than the deformation of the spring is ##\Delta L= \sqrt{(L-2R+(x_1+x_2))^2+(y_2-y_1)^2}-(L-2R)##. (I think that's what you meant and that ##-x_1## is just a typo. right?
 
If yes, than ##\Delta L= \sqrt{(L-2R+(x_1+x_2))^2+(y_2-y_1)^2}-(L-2R) \doteq (L-2R)(1+\frac{1}{2}\frac{R^2}{(L-2R)^2}(\varphi -\vartheta )^2)-(L-2R)=\frac{R^2}{2(L-2R)}(\varphi -\vartheta )^2##

Where I can't see how this helps me since ##V=\frac{1}{2}k(\Delta L)^2##
 
skrat said:
I think that's what you meant and that ##-x_1## is just a typo. right?

I was taking ##x_1## and ##x_2## positive to the right, and ##y_1## and ##y_2## positive up.

The sign convention doesn't matter so long as you are consistent, of course. Be careful about the signs of the ##y##'s and the angles!

skrat said:
Where I can't see how this helps me since ##V=\frac{1}{2}k(\Delta L)^2##

No, the spring is stretched initially. If the length increases by ##\Delta L##, the strain energy changes from ##\frac 1 2 k (L - 2R - d)^2## to ##\frac 1 2 k (L - 2R - d + \Delta L)^2##.
 
You've lost me. I have come so far:

Initial stretch: ##s_0=(L-2R)-d##

For rotation ##\varphi ## and ##\vartheta ## the length of the spring changes for ##\Delta L=\sqrt{(L-2R)^2+R^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2}-(L-2R)##

Than the total stretch is
##s=s_0+\Delta L=(L-2R)-d+\sqrt{(L-2R)^2+R^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2}-(L-2R)=\sqrt{(L-2R)^2+R^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2}-d##.

If I put this in ##V=\frac{1}{2}ks^2=\frac{1}{2}k(\sqrt{(L-2R)^2+R^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2}-d)^2## I get all sorts of nasty things where the most horrible part is that I don't get rid of that sqrt...
 
Let ##A = L - 2R## to simplify the algebra a bit.

The length of the spring at an arbitrary position (assuming the angles are small) is ##\sqrt{A^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2}##.

The unstretched length was ##d##, so the strain energy is ##\frac k 2 \left[ \sqrt{A^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2} - d\right]^2##.

##V = \frac k 2\left [A^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2 - 2d\sqrt{A^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2} + d^2\right]##.
The constant terms in ##V## don't matter.
##\frac k 2 R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2## is a nice quadratic form already.
The remaining term is ##-kd\sqrt{A^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2}
= -kdA\sqrt{1 + (\frac R A)^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2}##.
Expand the square root to first order using the Binomial theorem (since the angles are small) and you get another constant, and another nice quadratic form.
 
Last edited:
Jup, that makes much more sense than my notes. I will try tu use the same notation as you did.

##V = \frac k 2\left [A^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2 - 2d\sqrt{A^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2} + d^2\right]##
if we forget about the constant terms
##V = \frac k 2 R^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2 - kd\sqrt{A^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2}=##
##= \frac k 2 R^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2 - kdA \sqrt{1 + (\frac R A)^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2}=##
##= \frac k 2 R^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2 - kdA(1 + \frac 1 2 (\frac R A)^2(\varphi - \vartheta )^2)##
again forgetting about constants leaves me with

##V=\frac k 2 R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2 -\frac{kdR^2}{2A}(\varphi - \vartheta)^2=##
##=(\varphi - \vartheta)^2(\frac k 2 R^2-\frac{kdR^2}{2A})## for less writing let's say that ##C=\frac k 2 R^2-\frac{kdR^2}{2A}##

so finally

##V=C(\varphi ^2-2\varphi \vartheta + \vartheta ^2)##

Does this sound ok?
 
That looks good to me.

If you write the constant as ##\frac k 2 R^2(1 - \frac d A )##, you can see why the question said that ##d < A##. :smile:
 
  • #10
Actually, I think there are some terms missing from V. If you keep the ##x## displacements, the length of the spring is ##\sqrt{(A + \frac R 2 (\varphi^2 + \vartheta^2))^2 + R^2(\varphi - \vartheta)^2}##.

If you go through the same process as before, that will give some more second order terms in ##\varphi## and ##\vartheta##, for example ##AR(\varphi^2 + \vartheta^2)##.

The terms in ##\varphi## and ##\vartheta## higher than second order can be ignored.
 
  • #11
Huh, I agree.

I did some calculations, and hopefully you won't find any mistakes:

##x_1=\frac 1 2 R\varphi ^2## and ##x_2=\frac 1 2 R\vartheta ^2## and
##y_1=R\varphi ## and ##y_2=R\vartheta ##

The total stretch of the spring is than ##s=s_0+\Delta L##
##s=(A-d)+(\sqrt{[A+\frac R 2 (\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)]^2+R^2[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2}-A)=##
##=\sqrt{[A+\frac R 2 (\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)]^2+R^2[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2}-d##.

Now ##s^2=[A+\frac R 2 (\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)]^2+R^2[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2+d^2-2d\sqrt{[A+\frac R 2 (\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)]^2+R^2[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2}=## (In every step possible I will simply forget about all the constants)
##=AR (\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)+R^2[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2-2d\sqrt{A^2[1+\frac{R}{2A}(\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)^2+\frac{R^2}{A^2} (\varphi -\vartheta )^2]} =##
##=AR (\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)+R^2[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2-2dA(1+\frac 1 2[\frac{R}{2A}(\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)^2+\frac{R^2}{A^2}(\varphi -\vartheta )^2])=##
##=AR (\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)+R^2[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2-\frac{dR}{2}(\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)-\frac{dR^2}{A}[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2##

Using ##C=AR-\frac{dR}{2}## and ##D=R^2-\frac d A R^2##

##s^2=C(\varphi ^2+ \vartheta ^2)+D[\varphi -\vartheta ]^2##

So finally ##V=\frac 1 2 k[\varphi ^2(C+D)-2\varphi \vartheta D +\vartheta ^2(C+D)]## which is the same as

##V=\frac 1 2 k \eta ^T\begin{bmatrix}
C+D & -D\\
-D&C+D
\end{bmatrix}\eta##Finally I can start calculating ##det(V-\omega ^2 T)=det(V-\frac{J\omega ^2 }{k}T)=0## where ##\omega _k^2=\frac k J##.

If everything is ok, I get two eigenvalues of the system: ##\frac{\omega ^2}{\omega _k^2}=\lambda=C+D\pm D## and accordingly two eigen vectors that describe possible movements of my system

## \eta_1=(1,1)## and ##\eta _2=(1,-1)## as expected.
 
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