Collcetive consciousness and collective pray(for Sceptic,Ivan and others)

S

SGT

PIT2 said:
Whereever did i say it was unbelievable?
I merely said that the GCP takes these kinds of factors into account.
Are u stating that it is impossible to do this?

Oh and btw, the moment u start talking about the unlikelyhood of human intent doing anything, u should supply us with an explanation for (the illusion of) free will.
You didn't, I did. There is no theory capable of explaining the interference of electromagnetic fields on mathematical algorithms and none explaining the interference of human thought.
What has free will to do with the ability of human beings to interfere with matter at distance? Can you elaborate on this?
 
856
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SGT said:
What has free will to do with the ability of human beings to interfere with matter at distance? Can you elaborate on this?
U can ask urself how the 'will' can influence matter even if it is inside ur own body. What does it matter if the distance is a nanometer, a meter, or a kilometer?

Yes, it does make some kind of difference, because else we would all be using telekinetic powers to zap the TV on, but at its very base, the principle remains the same. The free will (if it exists) affects matter at a distance(however small the distance may be)and somehow it reaches the right places(in the brain).
 
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The prayer studies were flawed.

For example, one set of studies shows that being in a religious group gives you an edge on living to a ripe old age. You are more likely to survive illness, and so on.

Although subjects were paired for age, type of disease and so on - the conclusion that religion is good for your health ... is not justified. Another possible explanation is that being in a support group (not necessarily religion, but religion qualifies) is what is good for your health. Being a member of a golf club, for example, may confer the same benefits as being involved in religion. The importance of support to wellness in older age has been shown time and again.

There were other problems with other prayer studies, and most (if not all) have been retracted. In my understanding.
 
S

SGT

PIT2 said:
U can ask urself how the 'will' can influence matter even if it is inside ur own body. What does it matter if the distance is a nanometer, a meter, or a kilometer?

Yes, it does make some kind of difference, because else we would all be using telekinetic powers to zap the TV on, but at its very base, the principle remains the same. The free will (if it exists) affects matter at a distance(however small the distance may be)and somehow it reaches the right places(in the brain).
You are kidding aren't you? The effects inside the body are explained by electrochemical reactions. And those reactions have nothing to do with free will. Your heart pumps the blood, your lungs absorb air, exchange CO2 with O2 and expel the residue, your kidneys, intestines etc all work independent of your free will.
But relate this to the influence upon an algorithm that runs in a computer several thousand kilometers away is just silly.
 
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SGT said:
You are kidding aren't you? The effects inside the body are explained by electrochemical reactions. And those reactions have nothing to do with free will. Your heart pumps the blood, your lungs absorb air, exchange CO2 with O2 and expel the residue, your kidneys, intestines etc all work independent of your free will.
But relate this to the influence upon an algorithm that runs in a computer several thousand kilometers away is just silly.
Now u must be joking. Noone has ever explained free will (nor consciousness) through electrochemical reactions. In fact, according to the known laws that govern such reactions, there is no free will.

U mention the lungs absorbing air. Can u not choose to breathe in deeper, or hold ur breath?

Now u can state that this choice is an illusion, but u end up with an equally tricky thing to explain then: consciousness.
 
S

SGT

PIT2 said:
Now u must be joking. Noone has ever explained free will (nor consciousness) through electrochemical reactions. In fact, according to the known laws that govern such reactions, there is no free will.

U mention the lungs absorbing air. Can u not choose to breathe in deeper, or hold ur breath?

Now u can state that this choice is an illusion, but u end up with an equally tricky thing to explain then: consciousness.
Every nervous impulse in the body is originated by electrochemical reactions. And those are limited to the interior of the organism. They cannot affect anything at a distance of a few centimeters, even less hundreds of kilometers. EEG and ECG are done with sensors attached to the skin and not at any distance away.
The existence or not of free will is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Human mind cannot act at any distance from the body.
 
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SGT said:
Every nervous impulse in the body is originated by electrochemical reactions.
Not if free will exists.
 
S

SGT

PIT2 said:
Not if free will exists.
May be I am a little obtuse. Can you explain why free will is independent of human physiology?
 
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SGT said:
May be I am a little obtuse. Can you explain why free will is independent of human physiology?
U said that "every nervous impulse in the body is originated by electrochemical reactions". If free will exists, then it would be the origin of those electrochemical reactions.

I hope were not going too much offtopic here.
But what i was trying to say with the free will argument, is that it apparently reaches certain parts of the brain and causes neurons in different places to fire. However this 'intent' propagates itself along these small distances(even within neurons or between atoms), it may be similar to what the GCP/PEAR is trying to demonstrate.
 
S

SGT

PIT2 said:
U said that "every nervous impulse in the body is originated by electrochemical reactions". If free will exists, then it would be the origin of those electrochemical reactions.

I hope were not going too much offtopic here.
But what i was trying to say with the free will argument, is that it apparently reaches certain parts of the brain and causes neurons in different places to fire. However this 'intent' propagates itself along these small distances(even within neurons or between atoms), it may be similar to what the GCP/PEAR is trying to demonstrate.
I would say that the origin of those electrochemical reactions are stimuli and not free will.
To extrapolate that phenomena acting through interatomic distances should also act through hundreds of kilometers is to stretch (no pun intended) the reasoning somewhat.
 
SGT said:
I would say that the origin of those electrochemical reactions are stimuli and not free will.
To extrapolate that phenomena acting through interatomic distances should also act through hundreds of kilometers is to stretch (no pun intended) the reasoning somewhat.
There is no free will,whatever you think or do in the moment,it's all already conducted in our brain,every move,and every thought,like it or not.You should have watched "Brain Story".
 
S

SGT

No-where-man said:
There is no free will,whatever you think or do in the moment,it's all already conducted in our brain,every move,and every thought,like it or not.You should have watched "Brain Story".
I still don't see what importance the existence of free will has to the subject we are discussing.
 
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all thought and consciousness in the mind is generated by incoming signals trigering stored neural circuits [stored via electrochemical stimulation of glial protein cells which form chains along a connection so that when a signal of this type is received again the same connection will refire] that correspond to other similar signal types-

'free will' is merely the name we give to certain types of stored circuits which when stimulated trigger circuits that correspond to maintaining the goals/survival of the organism itself- If vis cortex sees red then trigger states corresponding to red shirt father was wearing when I he told me he was proud of me that day- then trigger good feelings about father- or audiovisual signals from TV trigger memory/recognition circuits which identify the TV image as a doctor talking about helping patients- previous positive and goal oriented states are triggered which together from a bias of dominant triggers to the circuits "doctors are good"/ "I want to help people""/"doctors help people"/"I need a good job"/"a doctor is a good job"/etc which leads the person to think that they have just 'decided' to try and become a physician- they feel it was a spontaneous or inspired choice- but was merely a cascade of signals triggering states and certain states dominated and tied back to the goals of the organism

I could go into your brain and alter those stored connections that make you for instance want to leave if there is a commotion- or see someone doing an activity and trigger you to want to do the same activity- and instead wire them to other triggered responses- thus I could fully manipulate and redisign your very core WIll into whatever I wanted- like with the 'I want to be a doctor" situation- I could bioengineer a solid and robust connection from any triger of the concept of 'doctor' to a set of circuits which reference the concept of 'doctors are pharmeceutical tools"- by trigering memory/concepts of 'doctors perscripbe meds'/ 'many meds are unsafe'/ 'the fda is corrupt' / correspondance between cartell:pusher to pharmeceutical company:doctor/ etc and every time you saw/thought of a physician your mind would quickly remember that doctors are corrupt tools for the pharmaceutical industry- and you would NEVER want to become one-
 
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SGT said:
I still don't see what importance the existence of free will has to the subject we are discussing.
Yes,you're right about that,I'll just shut up.
 
setAI said:
I could go into your brain and alter those stored connections that make you for instance want to leave if there is a commotion- or see someone doing an activity and trigger you to want to do the same activity- and instead wire them to other triggered responses- thus I could fully manipulate and redisign your very core WIll into whatever I wanted- like with the 'I want to be a doctor" situation- I could bioengineer a solid and robust connection from any triger of the concept of 'doctor' to a set of circuits which reference the concept of 'doctors are pharmeceutical tools"- by trigering memory/concepts of 'doctors perscripbe meds'/ 'many meds are unsafe'/ 'the fda is corrupt' / correspondance between cartell:pusher to pharmeceutical company:doctor/ etc and every time you saw/thought of a physician your mind would quickly remember that doctors are corrupt tools for the pharmaceutical industry- and you would NEVER want to become one-
Wow, great explanation... i think the same way and i agree completly, but i have a doubt, a much simplier question ... I extend my arm. and while it's extended i watch it and think. ok now i will decide when i will rise it. and, i wait. i wait... , and think. ok NOW!! and then i "decide" to rise it.
May bee its something silly, but if you try there is a clear felling that you have decided when to rise your arm. if not free will, is it random? is it a consecuence of some part of the brain that always waits xxx time??? what is it.
 
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No-where-man said:
Does this mean global consciousness exist?

Is there any way to prove these quasi-scientists that they are completely wrong and that they have understood these esperiments?
Yes global and gestalt consciousness is real. It is dependent on variables though. It is not somethng that happens on command or can be ordered to happen. The people have to cooperate usually. That is why the phenomenon is associated with religions. Religious people are nice enough to cooperate with groups of total strangers.

The most obvious example of gestalt consciousness is a mob. The individuals lose their will which merges with the wills of the other people in the mob. The mob mind takes over and the people act in ways they would not if they were in control of their own mind.

Have you ever been in a mob before? Were you able to resist being drawn in? Could you feel the pulling that the gestalt consciousness was exerting on you? Some people can do it and some cannot. I think it depends on will power. If you are strong willed, you are probably resistant to gestalt consciousness. If you are weak willed, then the gestalt mind can gain control of you.
 

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