Collcetive consciousness and collective pray(for Sceptic,Ivan and others)

1.I don't know if you have heard about this,but scientists supposedly tested thousand people who prayed in church for minimizing crime in Detroit(I think it was Detroit or some other city).The supposed result was that has been minimized for about 20% to 52% in each part of the city.
Does this prove that collective consciousness exist?
Does pray help at all to minimize crime or for getting better in job or does praying help for better health?
Any thoughts?
It's all here on this website:
http://npri.co.uk/Global-Consciousness-Project.htm [Broken]

2.Also,do you remember when terrorists who smashed Twin Towers in 2001?
And the Gulf War in Iraq?
Scientists(Roger Nelson and the likes) have said they have put 37 EGG computers in 37 countries around the entire world,so they can,if they can measure effects of,for humans,positive and negative events.What they have supposedly discovered is that whenever some catastrophic event(for humans) happened they have detected regularity:For example,when the Gulf war happened,scientists have detected hours earlier some regularity on the computer,as well it needed a few hours later to disappear.

3.Also,in this text(http://npri.co.uk/Global-Consciousness-Project.htm [Broken]) says that during the late 1970s, Prof Jahn decided to investigate whether the power of human thought alone could interfere in some way with the machine's usual readings. He hauled strangers off the street and asked them to concentrate their minds on his number generator. In effect, he was asking them to try to make it flip more heads than tails.

It was a preposterous idea at the time. The results, however, were stunning and have never been satisfactorily explained.
Again and again, entirely ordinary people proved that their minds could influence the machine and produce significant fluctuations on the graph, 'forcing it' to produce unequal numbers of 'heads' or 'tails'.
According to all of the known laws of science, this should not have happened - but it did. And it kept on happening.

Like I already said it has been told right here on this website:
http://npri.co.uk/Global-Consciousness-Project.htm [Broken]

Does this mean global consciousness exist?
Is there any way to prove these quasi-scientists that they are completely wrong and that they have understood these esperiments?
 
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SGT

I made a small simulation with 10000 tosses. I attributed the values +1 to heads and -1 to tails and added the successive tosses.
If we had equal number of heads and tails, the result would be zero and hence a straight line.
The graph attached shows that we have initially (first 1700 tosses) many more tails than heads and the graph goes negative. Then the graph turns mostly positive until about the 9700st toss, with only very brief negative values. After that the graph turns negative.
I sware I didn't pray for this result and nothing catastrophic happened.
If instead of 10000 I used 10 billion tosses, the shape of the curve would not be very different.
 

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SGT,
Read anything about Chaos Theory, and if so, don't you suspect Chaos dynamics at work in your experimental results?
 
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zoobyshoe said:
SGT,
Read anything about Chaos Theory, and if so, don't you suspect Chaos dynamics at work in your experimental results?
Not at all! The results are totally compatible with the theory of random processes. What statistics say is that in the long run the number of heads and tails must be equal. Each time my graph crosses zero, this means that the numbers turned equal. This has happened about 20 times in my experiment. What the theory does not say is that in each time interval it must happen. for instance, between around the 1700th and the 5800th toss we had more heads than tails, but finally the things evened out.
What I am saying is that the experimenters of the Global Consciousness Project are misinterpreting the pseudo anomalies they found, either by ignorance of the laws of statistics or by deliberately cheating.
 

Ivan Seeking

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SGT, you may well be right about the GCP, but you are making accusations with nothing to back them up.
 
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http://www.detnews.com/2003/metro/0312/17/b01-10366.htm [Broken]

They have prayed for peace for decades here. It has not worked.
 
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Heres an an article about 'retroactive prayer':

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/327/7429/1465

Conclusion

Questions raised by intercessory prayer and distant healing are far reaching, challenging basic assumptions about the nature of consciousness, space, time, and causality. Many consider these issues vexing and simply ignore them. But, if distant effects of consciousness are real, they will not cease to exist; these effects will operate in the background of our lives and, quite possibly, in our experiments. Others dismiss these events as trivial or irrelevant to the mission of healthcare professionals.

Conversely, non-local expressions of consciousness may be crucial in relieving human pain, medical science will be enriched by coming to terms with these phenomena, and an understanding of our place in the world will be increased in the process. We could achieve these advances by applying rigorous standards of empirical research that have consistently guided medicine through treacherous waters, including assessment of seemingly counterintuitive assertions. This is science doing its job.

Rather than dismissing studies of prayer because they do not make sense or confirm our existing knowledge, we should consider them seriously exactly for this reason. In the history of science, findings that do not fit in often yield the most profound breakthroughs.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
SGT, you may well be right about the GCP, but you are making accusations with nothing to back them up.
Ivan and others,what are your opinions on this?
My opinion on this is simple-there is no glbal consciousness,you ALL FORGOT THAT THIS ONLY ELECTRONICS,what about magnetic storms from the sun,they could easily shut down all electronic systems in the world.Also,these EGG computers prove that there was only disturbance inside Earth's electromagnetic field(which happens all the time,but many of them are of so small and weak intensity that they are undetectable),so the Gulf War,attack on the World Trade center and all others,are only a slight disturbances of Earth's electromagnetic fields.
 
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No-where-man said:
Ivan and others,what are your opinions on this?
My opinion on this is simple-there is no glbal consciousness,you ALL FORGOT THAT THIS ONLY ELECTRONICS,what about magnetic storms from the sun,they could easily shut down all electronic systems in the world.Also,these EGG computers prove that there was only disturbance inside Earth's electromagnetic field(which happens all the time,but many of them are of so small and weak intensity that they are undetectable),so the Gulf War,attack on the World Trade center and all others,are only a slight disturbances of Earth's electromagnetic fields.
Not even that! Long sequences of more heads than tails or vice-versa happen all the time. In my small experiment with only 10000 tosses I found one period where there were 60 more heads than tails. In longer experiments we will find even bigger sequences all the time.
In the other way, catastrophes or death of famous people also happen all the time. Finding a correlation between a pseudo-anomaly in random numbers and an important event is easy, meanly if the time lag between the two events is unspecified.
A good question would be how many times the supposedly anomalous sequences happened without any significant world event ensuing and how many of those events didn't follow an anomaly?
 
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The ppl at Global Consciousness Project can of course mess around with statistics.
And so can opponents.

Who is right?

I dont know, but i have some faith in scientists doing their work objectively and do not assume they are frauds when the results are weird.
For now, i give them (aswell as PEAR)the benefit of the doubt and will wait anxiously for any publications.
 
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SGT said:
Not even that! Long sequences of more heads than tails or vice-versa happen all the time. In my small experiment with only 10000 tosses I found one period where there were 60 more heads than tails. In longer experiments we will find even bigger sequences all the time.
In the other way, catastrophes or death of famous people also happen all the time. Finding a correlation between a pseudo-anomaly in random numbers and an important event is easy, meanly if the time lag between the two events is unspecified.
A good question would be how many times the supposedly anomalous sequences happened without any significant world event ensuing and how many of those events didn't follow an anomaly?
So,what does it specifically mean,what would be your explanation of these events recorded on these 40 EGG supercomputers if there is any since you're an scientist-it's good to have you on these boards.
 
SGT said:
Not even that! Long sequences of more heads than tails or vice-versa happen all the time. In my small experiment with only 10000 tosses I found one period where there were 60 more heads than tails. In longer experiments we will find even bigger sequences all the time.
In the other way, catastrophes or death of famous people also happen all the time. Finding a correlation between a pseudo-anomaly in random numbers and an important event is easy, meanly if the time lag between the two events is unspecified.
A good question would be how many times the supposedly anomalous sequences happened without any significant world event ensuing and how many of those events didn't follow an anomaly?
Also,do you think that collective pray helps at all?Like it was descibed that it helps in decreasing the crime(it was in an experiment where 1000 people prayed for crime decrease,and it supposedly work,about 20%-52% crime has decreased(I don't know if this was in Detroit or in an other city).
 

Ivan Seeking

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No-where-man said:
Ivan and others,what are your opinions on this?
Well, if I had a complete understanding of, the experiment, the analysis used, and all possible interpretations of the results, then I would have an opinion.
What I think is dangerous is to form opinions based on either claims made by the proponents, or claims made by internet debunkers. If we had five or six dispassionate experts on statistical analysis who were willing to discuss all of this in detail, that would be another thing altogether. :smile:
 
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No-where-man said:
Also,do you think that collective pray helps at all?Like it was descibed that it helps in decreasing the crime(it was in an experiment where 1000 people prayed for crime decrease,and it supposedly work,about 20%-52% crime has decreased(I don't know if this was in Detroit or in an other city).
Read the post from hypatia!
 
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No-where-man said:
So,what does it specifically mean,what would be your explanation of these events recorded on these 40 EGG supercomputers if there is any since you're an scientist-it's good to have you on these boards.
Do they have a list of all the anomalous events with their times of occurrence? How many of those don't correlate with a worldwide catastrophe?
Do they have a list of all worldwide catastrophes: earthquakes, floods terrorist attacks? Do all those events correspond to anomalous series of random numbers?
If the answer of those two questions is yes we can say that there is a correlation between the two sets of events. This would be a very interesting fact, but we must realize that correlation does not mean causation.
 

Curious3141

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I *do* know for a fact that when that "false alarm" missile strike in Iran happened there was NOTHING on my GCP monitors at home. I happened to have them on while I was listening to the news.

Granted it wasn't a "real" event, but for a few dreadful moments, I'm sure tens of thousands of people all over the world thought it was. And if level of psychic excitement (or whatever) is postulated to be the parameter that the GCP is supposedly responding to, then the meters should've spiked. But they didn't.

Personally, I think this sort of thing is a load of codswallop. Statistics is a dangerous tool if not applied with strict discipline. Look for something hard enough, and you're sure to get an effect, albeit a spurious one.
 
SGT said:
Do they have a list of all the anomalous events with their times of occurrence? How many of those don't correlate with a worldwide catastrophe?
Do they have a list of all worldwide catastrophes: earthquakes, floods terrorist attacks? Do all those events correspond to anomalous series of random numbers?
If the answer of those two questions is yes we can say that there is a correlation between the two sets of events. This would be a very interesting fact, but we must realize that correlation does not mean causation.
Yes,but my opinion still that it has with electrical,magnetic or electromagnetic fields.My argument would be this.Earth,for example is full of electrical fields,electircal energies and is sorrunded by EM(electromagnetic field),now whatever happens inside this field(or anything that penetrates this field) could disturb and debalance this electrical field(or any other form of field),and supercomputers(but not always) would be able to recognize it and detect it(of course if intensity of an let's say explosion is to small that even supercomputers wouldn't be able to detect it).This includes every event you can imagine,at least on Earth...
 
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No-where-man said:
Yes,but my opinion still that it has with electrical,magnetic or electromagnetic fields.My argument would be this.Earth,for example is full of electrical fields,electircal energies and is sorrunded by EM(electromagnetic field),now whatever happens inside this field(or anything that penetrates this field) could disturb and debalance this electrical field(or any other form of field),and supercomputers(but not always) would be able to recognize it and detect it(of course if intensity of an let's say explosion is to small that even supercomputers wouldn't be able to detect it).This includes every event you can imagine,at least on Earth...
Yub but the whole point of the GCP (and PEAR) is that takes these kinds of influences into account, and specifically sets up experiments to correlate the EGG behaviour with global conscious events and human intent.
 
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No-where-man said:
Yes,but my opinion still that it has with electrical,magnetic or electromagnetic fields.My argument would be this.Earth,for example is full of electrical fields,electircal energies and is sorrunded by EM(electromagnetic field),now whatever happens inside this field(or anything that penetrates this field) could disturb and debalance this electrical field(or any other form of field),and supercomputers(but not always) would be able to recognize it and detect it(of course if intensity of an let's say explosion is to small that even supercomputers wouldn't be able to detect it).This includes every event you can imagine,at least on Earth...
Pseudorandom numbers generation in computers rely on a mathematic algorithm. It is not believable that fields of any kind could alter an algorithm.
Of course, a strong disturbance could change the value of a bit in one of the generated numbers and, by consequence, all of the following numbers. But those numbers would still follow the algorithm and should have zero mean in the long run.
I stay with my hypothesis: there are no anomalies in the series of generated numbers, except what researchers want to find. This is the fallacy known as confirmation bias.
 
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PIT2 said:
Yub but the whole point of the GCP (and PEAR) is that takes these kinds of influences into account, and specifically sets up experiments to correlate the EGG behaviour with global conscious events and human intent.
See my answer to No-where-man. If it is unbelievable that electromagnetic fields can alter an algorithm, it is still more unbelievable that human intent could do it.
 
SGT said:
See my answer to No-where-man. If it is unbelievable that electromagnetic fields can alter an algorithm, it is still more unbelievable that human intent could do it.
Coooooool,than electormagnetic fields' theory fails here.
 
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SGT said:
See my answer to No-where-man. If it is unbelievable that electromagnetic fields can alter an algorithm, it is still more unbelievable that human intent could do it.
Whereever did i say it was unbelievable?
I merely said that the GCP takes these kinds of factors into account.
Are u stating that it is impossible to do this?

Oh and btw, the moment u start talking about the unlikelyhood of human intent doing anything, u should supply us with an explanation for (the illusion of) free will.
 
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