COM vs Lab Total energy discrepency

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the discrepancy in total energy between the Center of Mass (COM) frame and the lab frame for a neutron scattering elastically with a nucleus. Participants explore the implications of relativistic energy and frame dependence, seeking conceptual clarity on why energy appears different in these two frames.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the assertion that total energy in the COM frame is always less than in the lab frame, despite understanding the mathematics involved.
  • Another participant explains that in the COM frame, the total momentum is zero, leading to a lower energy expression compared to the lab frame where momentum is non-zero.
  • A later reply reiterates the idea that total energy is frame-dependent, acknowledging a common misconception that energy should remain constant across reference frames.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the concept that total energy differs between the COM and lab frames, but there is an underlying disagreement regarding the intuitive understanding of this phenomenon.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the implications of frame dependence on energy, indicating a need for further exploration of the topic.

physmurf
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I am reading from the book, "Nuclear Reactor Theory", by Lamarsh. I have run across an idea that I am struggling to understand:

It states that for a neutron that scatters elastically with a nucleus, the Energy in the Center of Mass (COM) frame of reference will always be slightly less than the total energy in the lab frame of reference.

For some reason I don't like this. Sure I can follow the mathematics and the explanation, but it doesn't seem right that the total energy would be the same. When I contacted my professor about this, he indicated that this is merely a classical idea. However, for some reason, this just doesn't jive with what I think should be going on.

Anybody have any conceptual explanations on why this is true?

Thanks
 
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Relativistic energy of any system in any reference frame is given by

[tex]E = \sqrt{M^2c^4 + \mathbf{P}^2c^2}[/tex]...(1)

where [itex]\mathbf{P}[/itex] is the total momentum and [itex]M[/itex] is the rest mass, which is independent on the reference frame. In the center-of-mass frame the total momentum is zero, so the energy is [itex]E = Mc^2[/itex], which is lower than in any other reference frame (where the total momentum is non-zero).

So, the reason for the excess energy in the lab frame is the fact that the system (neutron + nucleus) has a non-zero momentum.

Eugene.
 
physmurf said:
It states that for a neutron that scatters elastically with a nucleus, the Energy in the Center of Mass (COM) frame of reference will always be slightly less than the total energy in the lab frame of reference.
...
For some reason I don't like this. Sure I can follow the mathematics and the explanation, but it doesn't seem right that the total energy would be the same.
I guess I don't get what's bugging you. The total energy will always be less in the COM frame.

(Looks like Eugene already answered.)
 
Doc Al said:
...

I guess I don't get what's bugging you. The total energy will always be less in the COM frame.

(Looks like Eugene already answered.)

Intuitively I would think that the total energy of the system should be the same no matter what frame of reference you are in... However, that is where my misconception lies...Energy is not always going to be the same in every reference frame!

I apologize for the stupid question. I appreciate your responses.
 

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