- #1

pairofstrings

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- Summary
- Complicated and simple representation of same curve.

Thanks!

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- Thread starter pairofstrings
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- #1

pairofstrings

- 399

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- Summary
- Complicated and simple representation of same curve.

Thanks!

- #2

berkeman

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Um, could you maybe define your terms more precisely, and give some examples (using LaTeX) for what you mean?Summary::Complicated and simple representation of same curve.

View attachment 280855If I draw somearbitrarycurve then that curve can be representedconvolutedly in mathematical elementsand it can also be represented insimple mathematical elements?

Thanks!

- #3

FactChecker

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- #4

pairofstrings

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I could write the equation of the above curve by beginning with first term as x^6 and with more terms I could inch closer and closer to the precise equation of the curve - this is what I am calling convoluted equation.

- #5

berkeman

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Um, no.View attachment 280867

I could write the equation of the above curve by beginning with first term as x^6 and with more terms I could inch closer and closer to the precise equation of the curve - this is what I am calling convoluted equation.

- #6

pairofstrings

- 399

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I could add, subtract, multiply, divide more terms after the first term to get the correct graph.

- #7

pairofstrings

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Complicated:

x = 1-3+2-1+2

Simple:

x = 1

x = 1-3+2-1+2

Simple:

x = 1

- #8

FactChecker

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- #9

pairofstrings

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How do I know if a graph is made out of complicated terms/many terms or simple terms?

Can the equation of the above curve be intricate?

Can the equation of the above curve be simple?

Can the equation for the above curve be intricated or simple?

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- #10

Paul Colby

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Your complicated and simple in this example are subjective.Complicated:

x = 1-3+2-1+2

Simple:

x = 1

- #11

pairofstrings

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'x' can be a copy of a book.complicated and simple in this example are subjective

- #12

pairofstrings

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- #13

berkeman

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Your Profile Page says you are working on your BS in math. What year are you at university?View attachment 280870

How do I know if a graph is made out of complicated terms/many terms or simple terms?

Can the equation of the above curve be intricate?

Can the equation of the above curve be simple?

Can the equation for the above curve be intricated or simple?

- #14

jedishrfu

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##y = sec^2(x)= 1 + tan^2(x) ##

## = sin^2(x) + cos^2(x) + tan^2(x)##

- #15

hutchphd

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I can always make an equation more complicated. For instance ##y=x## can be rewritten as $$y=(x+1)(sin^2x+cos^2x) -1.$$ I cannot always make an expression "less complicated" without sacrificing arithmetic fealty. Your question really needs to be more specific

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- #16

Paul Colby

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Okay, what' the sum of Newton's Principia and Averson's "An Introduction to C*-Algebras?" Is it greater than 6?'x' can be a copy of a book.

- #17

pairofstrings

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I am self-studying. I haven't decided to go to a university. I am trying to find out what I will be doing in a university once I join it.Your Profile Page says you are working on your BS in math. What year are you at university?

Complicated:

x = 1-3+2-1+2

Simple:

x = 1

I have one book then I lost three books then I acquired two more books then I lost one book then I acquired two more books.

Total books acquired: five.

Total books lost: four.

Total books in custody: one.

Okay, what' the sum of Newton's Principia and Averson's "An Introduction to C*-Algebras?" Is it greater than 6?

Why/how sum of names of two books be greater than 6?

If I have a curve then can its equation be complex, and also simple?

The equation of

Can this curve have complicated equation?

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- #18

Paul Colby

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Why/how sum of names of two books be greater than 6?

Sorry, I was just trying to get you to think more clearly about your own statements. I haven't had much success. You said 'x' , an integer in the example you provided, could be the copy of a book. My comment is intended to bring out the absurdity of your statement. I realize you're just waving your hands trying to express different levels of complexity. This is not the same as providing a working definition.

So, consider, is 3 more complicated, less complicated, or equally complicated than 7? One could define a concept of "complicated" for integers in any number of ways. We could use the number of prime factors, size, or some combination of these. To me, 4 - 2 is the same as 2 but you seem to think the extra step of reducing to 2 makes 4 - 2 more complicated. In terms of integers, your question is we could always reduce our expressions or choose not to. Uh, okay. So what?

- #19

pairofstrings

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In terms of integers, your question is we could always reduce our expressions or choose not to. Uh, okay. So what?

Complicated:

x = 1-3+2-1+2

Simple:

x = 1

If I reduce the expression then I could know number of books in my custody.

If I don't reduce the expression then I could know what happened to the books over time.

As FactChecker points out the curve can be as simple as y = 1/x but what I am trying to know is if this curve can have a complicated equation; something more than just y = 1/x and I would get the same curve.A gross approximation to the curve you drew is given by 1/x.

- #20

FactChecker

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I don't know what you mean here. Do you mean that the point on the right is your current number of books?If I reduce the expression then I could know number of books in my custody.

So this is a plot of books in custody versus time?If I don't reduce the expression then I could know what happened to the books over time.

Sure. There are more complicated expressions that you might get to fit your curve better by adjusting parameters. The general shape of your curve (1/x) is a division by zero at x=0, so a better expression would probably need to have that aspect in it some way.View attachment 280920

As FactChecker points out the curve can be as simple as y = 1/x but what I am trying to know is if this curve can have a complicated equation; something more than just y = 1/x and I would get the same curve.

- #21

pairofstrings

- 399

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I don't know what you mean here. Do you mean that the point on the right is your current number of books?

Complicated:

x = 1-3+2-1+2

Simple:

x = 1

If I solve x = 1 - 3 + 2 - 1 + 2 then I will get number of books in my custody.

If I don't solve x = 1 - 3 + 2 - 1 + 2 then I get information like number of books acquired, and number of books lost over time.

- #22

FactChecker

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It sounds like you want something like ##B_{total} = B_1+B_2+B_3+B_4+...+B_n##

- #23

Mark44

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Complicated:

x = 1-3+2-1+2

Simple:

x = 1

Your complicated and simple in this example are subjective.

'x' can be a copy of a book.

From what you wrote later, x represents the

Your "complicated" equation above would not be considered complicated by anyone who has a grasp of very elementary arithmetic. If your intention is to get a degree in mathematics, you have a

I have one book then I lost three books then I acquired two more books then I lost one book then I acquired two more books.

Total books acquired: five.

Total books lost: four.

Total books in custody: one.

- #24

Paul Colby

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yes.If I have a curve then can its equation be complex, and also simple?

- #25

- #26

Mark44

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You are not "solving" this equation for x, since x is already isolated to one side. All you are doing is simplifying the not-very-complicated arithmetic expression on the right side.If I solve x = 1 - 3 + 2 - 1 + 2 then I will get number of books in my custody.

- #27

pairofstrings

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Thanks!If you have only one book, you cannot possibly lose three books.

Is it correct if I replace "lose" with "owe" or "debt" in the statement I wrote?

How do I capture the notion of debt/owe/loss in a mathematical statement?

Sorry, I should have mentioned earlier that I have one book at the beginning.

Thanks!

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- #28

Mark44

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Let's get rid of all three of these words: "owe", "debt", and "lose." Instead, imagine that you are running a shop that buys and sells books.Is it correct if I replace "lose" with "owe" or "debt" in the statement I wrote?

How do I capture the notion of debt/owe/loss in a mathematical statement?

Sorry, I should have mentioned earlier that I have one book at the beginning.

Let's also get rid of the equation you wrote -- x = 1 - 3 + 2 - 1 + 2 and focus just on the expression 1 - 3 + 2 - 1 + 2.

During one day, five customers come in. Let's assume that your shop starts the day with N books, where N is a reasonably large number.

Customer 1 sells 1 book.

Customer 2 buys 3 books.

Customer 3 sells 2 books.

Customer 4 buys 1 book.

Customer 5 sells 2 books.

At the end of the day, the number of books in the shop is N + 1 - 3 + 2 - 1 + 2, or more simply, N + 1 books. At the end of the day, the shop has 1 more book than at the start of the day.

- #29

pairofstrings

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Can 'N' also be negative??

- #30

Mark44

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Not in the scenario as I described it. To be meaningful, the seller could not sell more books at any time than there are on hand.Can 'N' also be negative??

I'm just elaborating on the example you gave earlier.

- #31

pairofstrings

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I can always make an equation more complicated. For instance y=x can be rewritten as y=(x+1)(sin^2x+cos^2x) -1.

Does y = x and y=(x+1)(sin^2x+cos^2x) -1 have the same meaning or is it the same graph but only the expressions are changing?

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- #32

Mark44

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Yes. The two equations are equivalent -- for a given value of x, both equations produce the same y value.Does y = x and y=(x+1)(sin^2x+cos^2x) -1 have the same meaning

Yes to that, also. The graphs would be exactly the same. The only difference is that the expression on the right in the 2nd equation is unsimplified.or is it the same graph but only the expressions are changing?

- #33

pairofstrings

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The graphs would be exactly the same. The only difference is that the expression on the right in the 2nd equation is unsimplified.

I didn't think that I have online graphing calculators for producing graphs for these equations. Sorry about that.

Okay, so the unsimplified 2nd equation is destined to become 'x' on simplification? Like this: y = x? Is it possible to get anything else other than 'x' on simplification from this unsimplified 2nd equation?

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- #34

hutchphd

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- #35

pairofstrings

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The two equations are equivalent -- for a given value of x, both equations produce the same y value.

the unsimplified 2nd equation is destined to become 'x' on simplification? Like this: y = x? Is it possible to get anything else other than 'x' on simplification from this unsimplified 2nd equation?

Does y = x and y=(x+1)(sin^2x+cos^2x) -1 have the same context?

y = x may have context not similar to y = ( x + 1)( sin^2x + cos^2x ) - 1...

First one is linear equation (straight lines) and the second equation is trigonometric equation (side lengths and angles).

What could y = x be?

What could y=(x+1)(sin^2x+cos^2x) -1 be?

What does it mean if y is x and y is (x+1)(sin^2x+cos^2x) -1?

Thanks!

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