Concentric circles and a certain curve's function

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter 24forChromium
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Circles Function
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical representation of a curve formed by connecting points on concentric circles divided into segments. Participants explore the possibility of expressing this curve using polar coordinates and its implications for Cartesian coordinates, particularly in the context of a high school research paper involving calculus and complex numbers.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a method for drawing concentric circles and dividing them into segments, seeking a function for the resulting curve.
  • Another participant suggests using polar coordinates to express the curve, indicating that the values of radius (r) and angle (θ) can be defined in terms of the number of segments (n).
  • It is proposed that as n approaches infinity, the curve will spiral towards the origin without reaching it.
  • Participants discuss the conversion of polar coordinates to Cartesian coordinates, noting that the curve does not represent y as a function of x due to multiple y-values for some x-values.
  • One participant points out that there is no analytic formula for x in terms of y, as it requires expressing n in terms of x, which leads to a complex equation involving trigonometric functions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various methods for representing the curve, but there is no consensus on a single formula or approach. Disagreements arise regarding the feasibility of expressing the curve in Cartesian coordinates and the implications of the relationship between x and y.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in deriving a closed-form solution for x in terms of y due to the nature of the equations involved, which may require numerical techniques for resolution.

24forChromium
Messages
155
Reaction score
7
Draw a large number of concentric circles with constant radii increment (i.e.: 1m, 2m, 3m...). Assign each with a serial number counting from the centre. (i.e.: innermost: 1, second innermost: 2, etc.)

Divide all the circles into segments, the number of segments for each circle is equal to its serial number, the inner most circle will be divided one time, it point of division is on the same direction from the centre point as the first division point of all other circles.

Now, there would be a shape that looks like something in the picture (not the best in the world) I uploaded:
Concentric circles and curve illustration.jpg

Now, connect all of the points of divisions that is immediately next to the first points in the clockwise direction:
Concentric circles and curve illustration 2.jpg

What would be the function of this curve.

I am asking this question in the context of writing a high school research paper, level of maths is up to calculus and complex number with some rigour, would it be possible to find a function to this curve using those?
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
The function is easily written using polar coordinates.

Let ##n## be the number of segments in the circle. Then write the values of ##r## and ##\theta## in terms of ##n## for the points you have drawn. By allowing ##n## to have non-integer values larger than 2 you can plot the curve between each pair of points on consecutive circles.

Once you have the formulas for ##r## and ##\theta## in terms of ##n## you can eliminate ##n## to get a formula for ##r## in terms of ##\theta##.

Even more fun: The above gives you a curve for values of ##\theta## in the range ##[-\frac{\pi}{2},\frac{\pi}{2})##. Now you can use the formula obtained above to extend it to ##\theta## in the range ##[-\infty,-\frac{\pi}{2})##, which corresponds to ##n\in(0,2)##. That curve will spiral in towards the origin, without ever reaching it, as it rotates clockwise around it.

Additional exercise: what will the curve do as ##n\to\infty##?
 
Last edited:
andrewkirk said:
The function is easily written using polar coordinates.

Let ##n## be the number of segments in the circle. Then write the values of ##r## and ##\theta## in terms of ##n## for the points you have drawn. By allowing ##n## to have positive non-integer values you can plot the curve between each pair of points on consecutive circles.

Once you have the formulas for ##r## and ##\theta## in terms of ##n## you can eliminate ##n## to get a formula for ##r## in terms of ##\theta##.

Even more fun: The above gives you a curve for values of ##\theta## in the range ##[-\frac{\pi}{2},\frac{\pi}{2}]##. Now you can use the formula obtained above to extend it to ##\theta## in the range ##[-\infty,-\frac{\pi}{2}]##, which corresponds to ##n\in(0,2)##. That curve will spiral in towards the origin, without ever reaching it, as it rotates clockwise around it.

Additional exercise: what will the curve do as ##n\to\infty##?
That's great, thanks, so the polar form would just be: r cis(θ) = n(radius increment) cis (π/2 - 2π/n).
How would you express that in terms of y f(x) again?

I found the formula for x and y in terms of n, but not the two of them in terms of one another.
 
You can use polar coordinates (parametric form).
r=n, \ \theta = \frac{\pi}{2}-\frac{2\pi}{n}
 
24forChromium said:
How would you express that in terms of y f(x) again?
For any given point ##(r,\theta)## you can express it in Cartesian coordinates for the purpose of plotting using
$$x=r\cos\theta;\ \ y=r\sin\theta$$

Note however that the curve is not the graph of ##y## as a function of ##x## because there will be some values of ##x## that have more than one value of ##y##. To find out what those values are, the additional exercise above needs to be done.

You can write the curve as the graph of ##x## as a function of ##y## if you restrict it to ##n\geq 2##.
 
24forChromium said:
I found the formula for x and y in terms of n, but not the two of them in terms of one another.
There will be no analytic formula for ##x## in terms of ##y##, because to get that you need to express ##n## in terms of ##x##, which will have no closed form solution because ##x=n\sin\frac{2\pi}{n}## and equations with a variable both inside and outside a trig function generally have no such solution. Numerical techniques must be used instead.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K