Conceptual Difficulty with Stat Mech

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conceptual difficulties in statistical mechanics, particularly regarding the relationship between temperature, energy, and the number of particles in a system. Participants explore the implications of different formulations of energy in relation to temperature and the necessity of averaging in certain contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a formula relating temperature to energy and particle number, noting a contrast with the ensemble average energy derived from the partition function.
  • Another participant emphasizes the distinction between instantaneous energy and average energy, suggesting that the first formula represents an average, which is not explicitly stated.
  • A third participant expresses confusion over the apparent conflict between the exact relationship of temperature, energy, and particle number, and the probabilistic nature of energy in thermal systems.
  • A subsequent reply points out that the canonical ensemble implies energy variation, asking for clarification on the original question.
  • Finally, one participant reflects on their misunderstanding, realizing that equal temperatures in thermal equilibrium do not guarantee equal energies, but rather represent the most likely outcome.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between temperature and energy, with some asserting that the definitions imply a conflict while others seek clarification on the nature of averaging in statistical mechanics. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these relationships.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for clarity on the definitions of energy in different contexts, the role of the partition function, and the assumptions underlying the canonical ensemble. There is an acknowledgment of the complexities involved in relating instantaneous and average energies.

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In statistical mechanics, we define

[tex]\frac{1}{\tau}=\left( \frac{\partial \sigma}{\partial U} \right)_N[/tex]

This formula gives the temperature as a function of the energy of the system and N. So knoweldge of U and N determines the temperature of the system. Conversely, at least when the above equation can be inverted, knowledge of the temperature and N determines the energy exactly.

This is contrasted with the ensemble average: [tex]U = \tau^2 \frac{\partial \log Z}{\partial \tau}[/tex]. This seems to imply that knowledge of the temperature and N only determines the ensemble average energy, whereas before, the energy was determined exactly.

For concreteness, consider a system of N spin 1/2 particles. In the large N limit,

[tex]\frac{1}{\tau}= \frac{-U}{Nm^2B^2}[/tex]

whereas

[tex]<U> = -2mBN \sinh (mB/\tau)[/tex].

How is it that these two formulas are not in conflict with each other?

Edit: I just realized that the second formula is actually an exact expression and in the appropriate limit reduces to the first. However, I am still confused about this. Why is averaging necessary in one case, while not in the other?
 
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an instantaneous energy and the average energy are not the same thing.

your first energy, the one involving the derivative of the ln of the partition function, is infact an average (although you didn't explicitly write it this way for some reason).

This seems to imply that knowledge of the temperature and N only determines the ensemble average energy, whereas before, the energy was determined exactly.

Don't forget the partition function! Without that you wouldn't know how the energy is actually partitioned amongst the possible states, and therefore wouldn't know the average energy!
 
I am aware of the distinction between the energy of a state and the ensemble average energy of a system. In fact, that's basically the cause of my confusion. In the definition of temperature, there no statistical averaging going on, yet you get the same relationship between T, U and N as you do when you take averages, as in the second formula.

I think about this as follows. Given a system S in thermal equilibrium with a reservoir R at temperature T, it follows from the 1st L.T. that S is at temperture T. Therefore, from the relation [tex]1/T = \partial_U \sigma(U,N)[/tex] (assuming I can invert this relation to find U in terms of T) we know the energy of the system S. Now on the other hand, we are taught that there is no definite relationship between these quantities. The system S could have any energy with relative probability given by the Boltzmann factor. All we can know is the average energy. It seems to me that there is a genuine conflict here. Am I wrong?
 
but you are in the canonical ensemble (constant N,V,T) so the energy will vary..i'm afraid i don't understand your question, can you phrase it differently?
 
I think I figured out my problem (and now that I have it is quite clear why you didn't understand my question). The problem was that I was thinking of two systems in thermal equilibrium as necessarily having equal temperatures, while in principle, equal temperature is only the most likely outcome.
 

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