Confused about a Problem Statement - Seeking Help

  • Thread starter Thread starter gfd43tg
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Confused
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem statement related to a Carnot cycle, specifically addressing the pressures at different states within the cycle and the implications for calculations involving heat transfer. Participants express confusion regarding the solution manual's claims about pressure equality at certain states and explore the relationship between pressure and phase changes in the context of the cycle.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the solution manual's assertion that pressures at states 3 and 4, as well as states 1 and 2, are the same, citing the PV diagram of the Carnot cycle as evidence of differing pressures.
  • Another participant suggests that figure 8.2 may be necessary for understanding the problem, indicating a potential misunderstanding of the cycle's operation.
  • A participant clarifies that figure 8.2 is a TS diagram of the Carnot cycle and believes they are interpreting the problem correctly.
  • One participant notes that the states involve phase changes, including liquid and saturated vapor states, which should be considered in the analysis.
  • There is speculation that the pressures might be equal to three decimal places, or that the solution manual could be incorrect.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus regarding the pressure relationships at different states, and multiple competing views remain about the interpretation of the problem statement and the solution manual.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the necessity of additional figures for clarity and the implications of phase changes on pressure calculations. There are unresolved questions regarding the accuracy of the solution manual.

gfd43tg
Gold Member
Messages
949
Reaction score
48
Hello,

I have the problem statement attached in the thumbnail. I am confused about this question. I looked at the solution manual, and they are saying that the pressure at states 3 and 4 are the same, as well as at states 1 and 2. I don't see how this is. Looking at the carnot cycle PV diagram, clearly all 4 states are at different pressures.

Anyways, I did the calculation with the same pressures. Now I am working on part C, and I thought since step 1-->2 is an isotherm, I could use the equation Q=RT ln(P2/P1). However, if P2 and P1 are the same, then Q is zero. What is going on here?


ImageUploadedByPhysics Forums1396769557.990116.jpg


ImageUploadedByPhysics Forums1396769606.310728.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 8.2.jpg
    8.2.jpg
    57.6 KB · Views: 464
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Do we not need figure 8.2 as well?
I can see how a carnot cycle can operate between three pressures but not just two.
Are you sure you are reading the correct key - what you describe sounds like a simple steam engine cycle.
 
My apologies but figure 8.2 is a TS diagram of the Carnot cycle which I drew in my attempt, I am certain I am reading the correct key
 
Last edited:
Here is a photo of the part of the solution regarding the pressure. Table F.1 is a saturated steam table

ImageUploadedByPhysics Forums1396810485.305649.jpg
 
Oh the states include a liquid state and a bunch of saturated vapor states.
Looks like changes of phase are happening during the cycle.
You would be expected to account for this in your analysis.

Of course it may just be that the pressures are the same to 3dp (i.e. the isotherms are almost flat).
Or that the answer key is just wrong.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
5K
  • · Replies 178 ·
6
Replies
178
Views
10K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K