Finding Cousins of Giuga Numbers: Can You Solve This Prime Number Puzzle?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the exploration of Giuga numbers and their "Cousins," which are defined as unique combinations of primes that satisfy a modified mathematical relationship involving their reciprocals. The scope includes theoretical aspects of number theory, computational approaches using MATLAB, and the challenges faced in identifying these numbers.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants define a Giuga number as a positive integer with a specific relationship involving its prime factors and a positive integer k.
  • One participant mentions finding the first 8 Cousins of Giuga numbers but struggles to identify the 9th and 10th, suggesting that higher numbers may be large.
  • Another participant questions the need for finding these numbers and suggests that the challenge lies in the efficiency of the search rather than the capability of MATLAB to handle large numbers.
  • There is a discussion about the equivalence of definitions and the potential for using efficient algorithms to generate Giuga numbers while varying k.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the motivations behind the search for these numbers, suggesting that it may not yield fundamental insights.
  • One participant shares their MATLAB approach for extracting prime factors and ensuring uniqueness, while others suggest alternative methods for generating candidates.
  • There is a mention of the relationship between Giuga numbers and Carmichael numbers, raising further questions about their properties.
  • Participants discuss the limitations of computational methods in proving mathematical conjectures, emphasizing that programs can check configurations but do not constitute proofs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance and methodology of finding Giuga Cousins, with no consensus on the necessity or efficiency of the approaches discussed. The motivations behind the inquiry are also debated, indicating a lack of agreement on the value of the problem.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the complexity of the problem and the potential for large numbers, while others highlight the need for a sufficient list of primes to explore combinations effectively. There are unresolved questions regarding the efficiency of various algorithms and the implications of the findings.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those involved in number theory, computational mathematics, and programming, particularly in the context of exploring properties of prime numbers and their relationships.

  • #31
pbuk said:
or eqivalently work with exact fractions: ## \frac{1}{2} +\frac{1}{3} + \frac{1}{7} + \frac{1}{41} - \frac{1}{1722} = \frac{861 + 574 + 246 + 42 - 1}{1722} = 1 = \frac{k}{6 + 1}, k = 7 ##
Both points made by @pbuk are very important.
As an example, I wrote a Python program to calculate 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + ... + 1/n. This isn't the same as the calculation done in this thread, but it shows the effects of error accumulation for different calculation algorithms.

Ex. 1 - Calculate 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + ... + 1/15
By writing the above as a single fraction over a common denominator of 15! the result was 3.3182289932289932
By brute force addition of the fractions the result was 3.3182289932289937
The difference between the two results is about ##4.5 \times 10^{-16}##.

Ex. 2 - Calculate 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + ... + 1/20
Same results from both methods

Ex. 3 - Calculate 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + ... + 1/50
By writing the above as a single fraction over a common denominator of 30! the result was 4.499205338329425
My brute force addition of the fractions the result was 4.499205338329423
The difference between these two results is about ##1.8 \times 10^{-15}##
 
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  • #32
kbannister said:
That's what I used to verify my first 8 "cousins", not "floating point arithmetic."
But you did not use that to eliminate any candidates, you used floating point arithmetic which resulted in you missing 24,695,930 = product(2, 5, 7, 71, 4969), k = 6.

kbannister said:
I have found the #9 6th Giuga cousin. It is 1,925,224,630, and its factors are 2 5 7 101 307 887,
resulting in a RHS of 6/7.
I posted this solution in #26.
 
  • #33
pbuk said:
But you did not use that to eliminate any candidates, you used floating point arithmetic which resulted in you missing

pbuk said:
When you have made incorrect assumptions about a person it is conventional to start with an apology*, however...I missed this condition from your first post. It would have helped if you had restated it in your post #23.Do you have any tone of communication that is not condescending? I had inferred that 6th cousin referred to the condition ## n = 6 ##.There you go again with the condescension; do you not see how foolish this sounds?Nope, you have still missed one (the 6th) < 25,000,000 with k = 6. Its greatest prime factor is much larger than for the other solutions, more than 4,900, which is probably why it is lost in the roundoff error of double precision arithmetic. If you want to find it then, I repeat, you need to use the modified version of your equation that uses only integers (no extended range arithmetic is required: the 53 bit integers of IEEE 754 double precision are plenty for candidates up to about ## 10^{11} ##).

I have already given you the 10th.

* It is particularly inappropriate to make assumptions about a persons family: fortunately all my grandparents were alive during the 60's and 70's; if this were not the case your assertion that they were 'dancing to the Stones' would have been distressing rather than simply foolish.

pbuk said:
I posted this solution in #26.
Excellent PbuK! I did miss that one - either I did not go far enough to find 4969, or did not use close enough tolerances. I did revise my algorithm to use loops based on only prime factors (although even there I did not go up to a factor as high as 4969).

I think this put the problem to rest.
 
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