Confused about Feynman diagrams

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

This discussion focuses on the construction and interpretation of Feynman diagrams in particle physics, particularly regarding electron-positron annihilation and weak interactions. Key examples include the annihilation of an electron and positron into a photon that decays into a muon-antimuon pair, and the decay of a pion into a muon and neutrino via a W+ boson. The participants clarify that flavor changes in particles do not violate conservation laws and emphasize the importance of interaction strength in determining the dominant force involved in reactions. The discussion also highlights the limitations of classical approaches without quantum field theory (QFT) calculations.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of particle physics concepts such as electron-positron annihilation and weak interactions.
  • Familiarity with Feynman diagrams and their role in visualizing particle interactions.
  • Knowledge of conservation laws in particle physics, including lepton and baryon number conservation.
  • Basic principles of quantum field theory (QFT) and its application in particle interactions.
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the role of conservation laws in particle interactions, focusing on lepton and baryon numbers.
  • Learn how to construct Feynman diagrams using quantum field theory principles.
  • Research the differences between strong, weak, and electromagnetic interactions in particle decay processes.
  • Explore the book "Introduction to Elementary Particles" by Griffiths for insights on finding amplitudes and cross sections from Feynman diagrams.
USEFUL FOR

Students and enthusiasts of particle physics, particularly those interested in understanding Feynman diagrams, particle interactions, and the underlying principles of quantum field theory.

dyn
Messages
774
Reaction score
63
Hi. I'm self-studying particle physics.Just been looking at some questions where a reaction is listed and the questions asks to draw a Feynman diagram for the reaction and state which force is involved. I have the answers but they all seem so random and I would like to know how to decide which force is involved. If possible I would like any explanation for the following examples -

1 - an electron and positron annihilate forming a photon which then decays to a muon and an antimuon
This is an EM interaction but I have read that only the Weak Interaction changes particle flavour. But hasn't the flavour changed here from electron to muon ?

2- an electron and positron move to the right (time axis) they are joined by a vertical line and 2 photons are emitted at the vertices. Is this electron-positron annihilation ? Why the vertical line ? Why do the electron and positron just not meet and annihilate to form a photon ?

3 π+ → νμ + μ+ via a W+ boson.
I have read that "the weak force cannot turn quarks into leptons and vice vera". But in this reaction hasn't quarks and antiquarks turned into leptons and antileptons ?

Thanks
PS I have the books by Martin & Shaw , Thompson , Barr & Devenish but none of them really explain how to construct Feynman diagrams just from a given reaction.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
dyn said:
1 - an electron and positron annihilate forming a photon which then decays to a muon and an antimuon
This is an EM interaction but I have read that only the Weak Interaction changes particle flavour. But hasn't the flavour changed here from electron to muon ?
No. The total electron and muon numbers before and after the reaction are zero. The anti-particles count as negative.

Also note that the photon is not an on-shell photon and does not "decay". It is just an s-channel interaction with a virtual photon.

dyn said:
2- an electron and positron move to the right (time axis) they are joined by a vertical line and 2 photons are emitted at the vertices. Is this electron-positron annihilation ? Why the vertical line ? Why do the electron and positron just not meet and annihilate to form a photon ?
Forming a single on-shell photon would violate energy-momentum conservation.

dyn said:
3 π+ → νμ + μ+ via a W+ boson.
I have read that "the weak force cannot turn quarks into leptons and vice vera". But in this reaction hasn't quarks and antiquarks turned into leptons and antileptons ?
Same answer as for (1). The total baryon and lepton numbers before and after the decay are zero.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dyn
dyn said:
1 - an electron and positron annihilate forming a photon which then decays to a muon and an antimuon
This is an EM interaction but I have read that only the Weak Interaction changes particle flavour. But hasn't the flavour changed here from electron to muon ?

How? Initially your electron number is: L_e(e^-) + L_e(e^+) = -1 + 1 = 0, and at the final state is 0+0 =0 (conserved).
Similarily for the muon lepton numbers (0+0 initially , +1-1 finally).

dyn said:
2- an electron and positron move to the right (time axis) they are joined by a vertical line and 2 photons are emitted at the vertices. Is this electron-positron annihilation ? Why the vertical line ? Why do the electron and positron just not meet and annihilate to form a photon ?
Because you can find a reference frame (by a Lorentz transformation) where the total momentum of the electron+positron system is zero (center of mass frame)... In that frame, conservation of momentum would imply that the single photon would have to have 0 momentum... that's impossible for real photons (since they are massless and have energy E=pc). If you allow two (or more) photons in the final state then you don't have this problem.

dyn said:
3 π+ → νμ + μ+ via a W+ boson.
I have read that "the weak force cannot turn quarks into leptons and vice vera". But in this reaction hasn't quarks and antiquarks turned into leptons and antileptons ?
It's a u\bar{d} ( \rightarrow W^+ \rightarrow ) \mu^+ +\nu_\mu
What do you have initially and what you have finally? The lepton numbers are conserved, the baryon numbers (mesons have 0 baryon number since they are quark+antiquark pairs) are conserved.
the statement "the weak force cannot turn quarks into leptons and vice vera" means that you cannot have something like:
u \rightarrow l \nu_l
(which I think makes sense even from conservation of charge.)
You can have:
q \bar{q}' \rightarrow l \nu_l (eg B-meson leptonic decays) and q \rightarrow q' l \nu_l (eg top semileptonic decays)

In general Feynman diagrams are like art when you want to construct them in a basic level (like a puzzle). They can give you an idea of conservation laws (just because conservation laws are always applied in them) and things like that in particle physics... the thing is how deep you want to go into them, since afterall they only represent amplitudes for a given process (which allow you to calculate cross-sections/probabilities). That's why you can see mathematical formulas like: | \text{Feyn.Diag.1} + \text{Feyn.Diag.2} +... |^2... With a QFT in particle physics, you are able to construct the Feynman diagram by reading the Lagrangian and using several rules that are there...
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dyn
Thanks both of you. That's a great help. But when just given the reaction and without resorting to QFT how do you know the most likely force involved ? eg. for
Δ++ → p + π+ . the given answer was the Strong interaction but the reaction involves quarks so the force involved could be EM , Strong or Weak. What do I look for to know that the most likely force involved is the Strong one ?
 
Go by interaction strength. If it is possible via the strong interaction, that is dominant. If not, but it is possible by the electromagnetic interaction, it is that. Otherwise it happens via the weak interaction.

There are a few exceptions (e. g. Z bosons can be relevant even when there is a similar electromagnetic process), but they shouldn't be too relevant here.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dyn
Thanks ! That makes a lot of sense but what about
π+ → μ+ + νμ ?
This involves quarks so could happen by the Strong force but the decay is via the Weak force and the W+ boson. How would I be supposed to know this without any QFT calculations ?
 
Last edited:
dyn said:
This involves quarks so could happen by the Strong force but the decay is via the Weak force and the W+ boson. How would I be supposed to know this without any QFT calculations ?
Could it happen with just the strong force? What's the difference between leptons and quarks (they are both fermions but...)?
In your reaction you obviously have leptons in the final state (muon and neutrino). That answers your question.

Also strong force (mediated by gluons) cannot change the flavor of the quarks, in the charged pion you have an up-flavor and down-flavor quarks interacting somehow (there is no vertex in which an u-->d by emitting/absorbing a gluon). W bosons can do that (they can be flavor changing), in fact in vertices with quarks they always do that and you can remember that by charge conservation...
 
ChrisVer said:
Could it happen with just the strong force? What's the difference between leptons and quarks (they are both fermions but...)?
In your reaction you obviously have leptons in the final state (muon and neutrino). That answers your question.
.
I'm not sure which difference you are referring to ? The only reason I can now see that the reaction couldn't proceed by the Strong Interaction is that quark flavours have changed ie. the number of up minus anti-up has gone from 1 to zero which can only happen with the weak force,
 
dyn said:
I'm not sure which difference you are referring to ?
leptons are not seen by strong interactions. That's one distinction (even a definition) between leptons and quarks. So, leptons can't interact via strong interaction... So you can't see gluon+leptons vertices.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dyn
  • #10
Thanks for your help
 
  • #11
I would suggest buying Introduction to Elementary Particles by Griffiths. It may not give instructions on how to create diagrams, but it gives excellent instructions on how to find amplitudes, decays, and cross sections, given a diagram.
 

Similar threads

Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
5K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
8
Views
1K