Confusion about conservation of energy vs. momentum

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of conservation of energy and momentum, particularly in the context of two masses interacting in deep space. Participants explore the implications of Newton's laws and the calculations of kinetic energy and momentum during their interaction.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a scenario involving two masses in deep space, arguing that the kinetic energy is not conserved based on their calculations of energy before and after an interaction.
  • Another participant questions the validity of the claim that energy is not conserved, suggesting that the misunderstanding lies in the calculations and interpretations of momentum and energy conservation.
  • A third participant emphasizes the necessity of setting up equations for both conservation of momentum and energy, asserting that arbitrary assumptions about momentum transfer are incorrect.
  • Further clarification is provided that energy conservation does not imply that individual objects must have the same energy, but rather that the total energy of the system remains constant over time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the interpretation of energy conservation in the given scenario. There is no consensus on whether the initial claim about energy not being conserved is valid, as differing viewpoints on the calculations and principles involved are presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of considering both kinetic and potential energy in the total mechanical energy of the system, highlighting that assumptions about momentum transfer may lead to incorrect conclusions.

Low-Q
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Hello,

A dude I'm discussing momentum and kinetic energy with says this:
"Place two masses in deep space, the only gravitational attraction is from each other.
One of the masses is ten kilograms and the other is one kilogram.
From Newton's Third Law we know that the mutual attraction is equal in both directions.
From F = ma we know that the acceleration of the one kilogram will be ten times greater than the acceleration of the 10 kilograms.
After a period of time the one kilogram will be moving 10 times faster than the 10 kilograms. When the one kilogram is moving one meter per second the 10 kilograms will be moving .1m/sec.

Then ½ *10kg *.1 m/sec * .1 m/sec = .05 joules
And ½ * 1 kg * 1 m/sec* 1 m/sec = .5 joules

Energy is not conserved
."

This guy say that if you have a 10kg steel ball, here at earth, that is pushed into motion at 0.1m/s and spend all its momentum to put a 1kg. steel ball into motion, the 1kg ball would have a velocity of 1m/s, but with that mass and velocity, the kinetic energy is 10 times greater than the kinetic energy of the 10kg ball before impact.
Why does he say that energy isn't conserved? I assume it must be a misunderstanding in how he calculate the results, even he is right about conservation of momentum.

Vidar
 
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Low-Q said:
Why does he say that energy isn't conserved?
Why don't you just ask him?
 
First question: What is the change in gravitational potential energy?
Second question: That doesn't happen, because it violates energy conservation. Set up equations to express the conservation of momentum and energy, and solve for v1 and v2. There are only two possible solutions; one is the initial condition and the other is the condition after collision. You cannot arbitrarily specify that the first ball must "spend all its momentum" to put the other ball in motion.
 
Low-Q said:
Hello,

Then ½ *10kg *.1 m/sec * .1 m/sec = .05 joules
And ½ * 1 kg * 1 m/sec* 1 m/sec = .5 joules

Energy is not conserved
."
Energy conservation does not mean that the two balls must have the same energy.
"Conservation" of some quantity in Physics means that the value of the quantity at some time t1 is the same as the value as another time, t2.
If you calculate the total energy of the system when it starts moving and at a later time, they will have the same energy. You need to consider potential energy of the system and the sum of the kinetic energies to get the total mechanical energy.
 

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