Conserved quantities in mechanics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around conserved quantities in classical mechanics, specifically focusing on energy, angular momentum, and momentum. Participants explore the conditions under which these quantities are conserved and question the existence of additional conserved quantities beyond the commonly recognized seven.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant identifies three main conserved quantities in classical dynamics: energy, angular momentum, and momentum, totaling seven separate conserved quantities.
  • Another participant suggests that conservation laws arise from the invariance of the Lagrangian with respect to each degree of freedom, implying that additional conserved quantities could exist if more degrees of freedom are identified.
  • A question is posed regarding the conservation of momentum in the context of directing a hosepipe at a wall, prompting a request for clarification on how horizontal momentum is conserved in this scenario.
  • It is noted that momentum is conserved in closed systems, but some systems may have additional conserved quantities, such as those found in the Kepler problem or harmonic oscillators.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of specifying conditions, arguing that mechanics should not be exclusively considered in the context of closed systems, citing past failures in mechanical systems due to this oversight.
  • A response to the hosepipe scenario explains that the wall, being effectively infinitely massive, moves at an infinitesimally small rate, thus conserving momentum.
  • A follow-up question is raised about the source of perpendicular momentum at the wall face, indicating further inquiry into the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conditions under which momentum is conserved, with some asserting it is only in closed systems, while others suggest that additional conserved quantities may exist. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the existence of more conserved quantities and the specifics of momentum conservation in various scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of clarity on the definitions of closed systems and the conditions under which conservation laws apply. The discussion also highlights the need for careful consideration of assumptions in mechanical systems.

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So having been through translation and rotation I can conclude that my book has found 3 conserved quantities in classical dynamics:
Energy
Angular momentum
Momentum
That is 7 separate quantities which are conserved E,Lx,Ly,Lz,px,py,pz
But this question is bothering me: How do we know that there are not more conserved quantities?
 
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Conservation laws come from invariance of the Lagrangian with each degree of freedom.
If you can think of another degree of freedom you can have another conservation law.
 
Is momentum always conserved?

Suppose I direct a hosepipe horizontally at a wall.

Please explain conservation of horizontal momentum at the wall face in this case.
 
Studiot said:
Is momentum always conserved?
In closed systems.

Some systems have additional conserved quantities, for example the Kepler problem or harmonic oscillators. But in the general case, you just have those 7 conserved quantities.
 
@mfb
Yes it is good to specify the conditions.
These were not originally specified and mechanics is not exclusively about closed systems, and should not be taught or thought of as such.

In my career I have seen spectacular failures of mechanical systems due to failure to appreciate this.
 
Studiot said:
Is momentum always conserved?

Suppose I direct a hosepipe horizontally at a wall.

Please explain conservation of horizontal momentum at the wall face in this case.
Simple. The (effectively) infinitely massive wall moves at an (effectively) infinitesimally small rate. The product mass*velocity is some finite, non-zero quantity that exactly obeys conservation of momentum.
 
So where does the perpendicular (to the flow) momentum come from at the wall face?
 

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