Constant Off-Center Propulsion (without gravity)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the position and motion of a rigid body subjected to a constant off-center thrust force, specifically in the absence of gravitational effects. Participants explore the implications of thrust direction, point of application, and the resulting motion dynamics, including both linear and angular motion.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks to understand how to calculate the position of a body under constant thrust applied off-center, referencing linear and angular motion formulas.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need to clarify what is constant in the scenario, questioning whether the thrust direction and point of application are fixed relative to the body or in an inertial frame.
  • A participant clarifies that the thrust is of constant magnitude but raises the issue of its direction changing as the body rotates if the engine is fixed to the body.
  • Further discussion includes the suggestion to define a coordinate system and variables, indicating that the angle of the body and the offset distance from the center of mass are crucial for calculations.
  • One participant provides a formula for linear motion assuming the thrust is applied at the center of mass, while another corrects this by noting that the thrust is not applied at the center and discusses the need to account for mass in the calculations.
  • There is mention of angular velocity and its increase due to the applied force, with a focus on the need for additional factors to convert angular acceleration into changes in angular velocity over time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of thrust direction and point of application, indicating that there is no consensus on how these factors affect the calculations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to model the motion under the specified conditions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of defining assumptions related to the thrust's direction and point of application, as well as the need for a fixed reference frame. There are unresolved mathematical steps regarding the integration of angular acceleration into angular velocity changes.

Gabriel Mota
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Hi,

How to calculate the position in time by applying a force, like a Thrust, not in the center of mass:

553ZYzJ.png

I only know about the linear and angular formulas: Pos/rotation = 1/2 * F * Time^2

I have struggled finding topics about this maybe because i don't know the correct nomenclatures and maths.
 

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First step is to be clear about what exactly is constant here. Is the direction and point of application of thrust constant relative to the rigid body, as would be the case for an engine within the body, or is the point of application fixed in the body but the direction fixed in the rest frame?
 
haruspex said:
First step is to be clear about what exactly is constant here. Is the direction and point of application of thrust constant relative to the rigid body, as would be the case for an engine within the body, or is the point of application fixed in the body but the direction fixed in the rest frame?

Thanks for answering.

By constant i mean the same force is constantly being applied and as you mention, could be for example a spaceship with an engine.
 
Gabriel Mota said:
Thanks for answering.

By constant i mean the same force is constantly being applied and as you mention, could be for example a spaceship with an engine.
You seem to have missed the crux of my question.
I understand that the force is to be of constant magnitude, but what about its direction? If it is from an engine rigidly fixed to the body then its direction changes as the body rotates; but if it is from an outside source then the direction may be constant in the inertial frame.
 
haruspex said:
You seem to have missed the crux of my question.
I understand that the force is to be of constant magnitude, but what about its direction? If it is from an engine rigidly fixed to the body then its direction changes as the body rotates; but if it is from an outside source then the direction may be constant in the inertial frame.

Yes, the engine would be fixed and rotates with the rigid body.
 
Gabriel Mota said:
Yes, the engine would be fixed and rotates with the rigid body.
Ok, so choose a coordinate system and define some variables.
In Cartesian, with x, y as the coordinates of the mass centre, you need the angle the body makes to the x axis, and an offset distance from the mass centre to the line of action of the thrust. Take the offset as being in the +x direction when the angle is zero.
 
TEnI4Mk.png


If point application was center of mass (0,0):
y = (1 / 2) * F * Time2

AngularVelocity increases every frame by = ( Position Cross Product with Force ) / Moment Of Inertia
 

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Gabriel Mota said:
If point application was center of mass (0,0):
But it isn't, and you need to make the origin fixed in space, not fixed as the mass centre.
Gabriel Mota said:
y = (1 / 2) * F * Time2
You omitted mass.
Gabriel Mota said:
AngularVelocity increases every frame by = ( Position Cross Product with Force ) / Moment Of Inertia
That's the angular acceleration. To turn it into the increase in angular velocity in a time step you need to multiply by something.
From the reference to "every frame ", sounds like this is for a simulation.
 

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