Coordinate transformation of a vector of magnitude zero

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of vectors of zero magnitude under coordinate transformations, particularly focusing on whether such vectors can transform into non-zero magnitude vectors in various geometrical contexts. The scope includes theoretical considerations of linear and affine transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that a vector of zero magnitude must remain a zero vector under coordinate transformations, as its components must all be zero.
  • There is a suggestion that while linear transformations preserve the zero vector, non-linear transformations, such as translations, may not.
  • A participant questions whether the property of an affine transformation, which does not necessarily map the origin to itself, could be used to define such transformations.
  • Another participant challenges the idea of defining affine transformations based on the mapping of the origin, providing an example of a bijective transformation that does not map zero to zero but is not considered affine.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that linear transformations preserve the zero vector, but there is disagreement regarding the implications of non-linear transformations and the definition of affine transformations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the nature of transformations and their effects on zero vectors.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of defining transformations and their properties, particularly in distinguishing between linear and non-linear transformations. There are unresolved questions about the definitions and characteristics of affine transformations.

Battlemage!
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Is there some geometry in which a coordinate transformation of a vector of magnitude zero transforms to a vector that does not have a zero magnitude?

Since the formula for the magnitude of a vector is √(x12+x22+...xn2), I can see no way for it to have magnitude zero unless every component is zero. Therefore it has to be the zero vector. Furthermore, since vectors are independent of the coordinate system they are in in Euclidean geometry, even if a coordinate transformations change coordinates, it seems to me a zero vector must contain the same coordinates of 0 all the way through.

But if that is true, is there some weird geometry where it doesn't hold? In which a vector of zero magnitude transforms to a vector whose magnitude is not zero?
 
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Battlemage! said:
Since the formula for the magnitude of a vector is √(x12+x22+...xn2), I can see no way for it to have magnitude zero unless every component is zero. Therefore it has to be the zero vector.
Yes.
Battlemage! said:
But if that is true, is there some weird geometry where it doesn't hold? In which a vector of zero magnitude transforms to a vector whose magnitude is not zero?
Every linear transformation maps the origin to itself, but what about translation (which is a non-linear but rather an affine transformation)?
 
Krylov said:
Yes.

Every linear transformation maps the origin to itself, but what about translation (which is a non-linear but rather an affine transformation)?
Ah! That should have been obvious. For context this question came about because I had thought I heard a math lab person say a zero vector must remain zero due to a linear transformation, but that it didn't hold in general. It is clear from what you just said that non-linear transformations do not.

Could this feature of an affine transformation be used to define it as such? I.e. an affine transformation is a transformation such that the origin does not necessarily map to itself?
 
Battlemage! said:
Could this feature of an affine transformation be used to define it as such? I.e. an affine transformation is a transformation such that the origin does not necessarily map to itself?
No. ##T : \mathbb{R} \to \mathbb{R}## defined by ##T(x) = x + \tfrac{1}{2}\cos{x}## is bijective and ##T(0) = \tfrac{1}{2}## but I don't think you would want to regard ##T## as an affine transformation.
 

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