Cosmic Flatness Deduced from CMB

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of cosmic microwave background (CMB) observations made by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) and how these observations relate to the curvature of space. Participants explore the reasoning behind deducing spatial curvature from temperature variations in the CMB, as well as related concepts such as gravitational lensing and the nature of black holes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how spatial curvature can be deduced from temperature variations in the CMB, suggesting that uniform curvatures could also produce uniform temperature variations.
  • Another participant raises concerns about deducing overall spatial curvature from a seemingly small sample of the universe's early plasma.
  • Questions are posed regarding the continuity of the CMB in the future and whether similar patterns will persist in our skies.
  • There is a discussion about gravitational lensing around black holes and stars, with one participant wondering why larger collective masses wouldn't have large-scale effects on curvature.
  • Black holes are mentioned as potential examples of high-curvature spaces, prompting further inquiry into their implications for cosmic curvature.
  • A later post introduces the concept of measuring angles in triangles formed by cosmic structures to infer curvature, contrasting this with Euclidean geometry.
  • Another participant shares insights from a PF Insights post, noting that acoustic modeling based on primordial plasma assumptions can yield different values for sound wavelengths depending on spatial curvature, with observations of the CMB matching predictions for flat curvature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of viewpoints, with some questioning the methods of deducing curvature from the CMB while others provide insights into the theoretical framework. No consensus is reached on the implications of these observations or the nature of curvature.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the relationship between temperature variations and spatial curvature, as well as the dependence on specific assumptions in acoustic models. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the implications of gravitational lensing and the nature of black holes.

XilOnGlennSt
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TL;DR
Cosmic Background Radiation studies by the WMAP project, concluded that the Universe has basically Euclidian flat curvature. Can someone sketch the reasoning behind this?
The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) measured temperature differences across the sky in the cosmic microwave background (CMB). See --->(Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilkinson_Microwave_Anisotropy_Probe#Main_result)

From these observations researchers concluded that the curvature of space is basically flat. I would love to gain insight into their reasoning. Maybe I can make this easier by exposing major points of my ignorance. Q1: How can spatial curvature be deduced from temperature variation? Q1A: Couldn't all sorts of uniform curvatures also produce uniform temperature variations?

So, the CMB witnessed by WMAP during nine years, took 13.8 billion years to catch up to 'us'. This despite the idea that the CMB pattern was formed at a time when the Universe, including our "position" in it, was much smaller. From this I imagine that the observed radiation would have originated only from a thin 'spherical' section of the original plasma at that time, consisting of points equidistant from our position. Q2: How can overall spatial curvature be deduced from such a select small sample.

Related questions:
Q3: Can we suppose that a similar CMB has been and will continue to be present in our skies?
Q4: We now witness gravitational lensing around black holes and stars. These would seem to be smaller-scale examples of non-flat space. Why wouldn't we expect that larger collective masses could have large-scale effects?
Q5: Wouldn't black holes themselves be examples of high-curvature spaces?

Thanks for your help!
 
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As soon as I posted this, I was guided to all sorts of information on this subject. I'll start there.

Still, comments are welcome. Thanks
 
XilOnGlennSt said:
As soon as I posted this, I was guided to all sorts of information on this subject.
Can you provide a link for other readers of this thread?
 
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Basically it is about drawing triangles and measuring the angles of those triangles. The scale of variations can be inferred so that together with the travel distance gives you three legs of a triangle. Measuring the angular size of variations gives you an angle. Compare with what the angle would be in Euclidean space for the same side lengths. A larger angle means closed universe, a smaller open.
 
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bapowell said:
So, this post helped me appreciate the depth of theory around this question. Here are my take-aways:
  • Acoustic modeling can be accomplished based on assumptions about the primordial-plasma universe.
  • Such models give different values for dominate sound wavelengths based on its spatial curvature.
  • Observation of the CMB shows dominate wave forms which match those predicted for flat curvature.
This is all news to me, and I'm glad to have a better mental sketch.

If the theory was all settled prior to the observations, then I would say that this is a marvelous triumph for the theorists! Horay!

In any case, congratulations to these researchers. Thanks for the information.
 

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