Critical density formula hides fundamental relationship?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the critical density of the Universe and its implications for cosmological models. Participants explore the relationship between mass, radius, and density in the context of the observable Universe, considering both theoretical and mathematical aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a relationship derived from the critical density formula, suggesting it embodies Mach's principle and defines the observable Universe in terms of gravitational interactions.
  • Another participant asserts that the derived relationship leads to a model that behaves like the massless Milne model, indicating a linear expansion of the Universe.
  • A third participant elaborates on the first Friedmann equation, showing how the relationship leads to a formula for density that implies spatial flatness without prior assumption.
  • Some participants note that the Hubble relation is a linear approximation valid only under certain conditions, suggesting an implicit assumption of a flat universe.
  • There is a reiteration of the relationship's application to a spherical mass distribution, emphasizing its embedding in flat space.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the derived relationships and their assumptions. There is no consensus on the validity of the models presented or the interpretations of the relationships discussed.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on assumptions about the spatial curvature and the validity of the Hubble relation in the context of the models discussed. The mathematical steps leading to certain conclusions remain unresolved.

johne1618
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Observations show that the current density of the Universe is close to the critical density:

rho = 3 H_0^2 / 8 Pi G

Assuming a spherical observable Universe of constant density, together with the relation c = H_0 * R, one can rearrange the above equation to give the relation:

G * M / R = c^2 / 2

where M is the mass and R is the radius of the observable universe at the current cosmological time.

Perhaps this is a fundamental relationship that holds at all times. It seems to embody Mach's principle in that it says that half the mass/energy of any particle comes from the mutual gravitational potential energy between the particle and the rest of the observable Universe. (To see this multiply both sides by the particle mass m). In fact this relationship seems to provide a natural definition of the "observable" universe as the "gravitationally interacting" Universe.

If you plug the above relationship into the Friedmann equations one gets a linearly expanding model that behaves exactly like the massless Milne model!
 
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johne1618 said:
If you plug the above relationship into the Friedmann equations one gets a linearly expanding model that behaves exactly like the massless Milne model!
If you do it properly, everything will cancel, because the equation you wrote down is the equivalent of the Friedmann equations.
 
The equation defines a model of the Universe that is spatially flat and linearly expanding that obeys the Friedmann equations.

The first Friedmann equation says:

[(a' / a)^2 - 8/3 G Pi rho] a^2 = -kc^2

where a is the scale of the Universe, rho the density and k is the spatial curvature.

If I use the relationship G M / R = c^2 / 2 for a spherical observable universe of Mass M and radius R then I can get a formula for the density rho as

rho = M / V = (c^2 * R / 2 G) * 1 / (4/3 Pi R^3)

rho = 3 c^2 / 8 Pi G R^2

Now for the Hubble constant we have the formula:

c = H R

Therefore the term 8 /3 G Pi rho is actually H^2.

We also know the term (a' / a)^2 = H^2 by the definition of the Hubble constant.

Thus we find that this solution implies

-k c^2 / a^2 = H^2 - H^2 = 0

therefore the spatial curvature is zero. Notice we haven't set it to zero beforehand it came out naturally from the model.
 
johne1618 said:
Now for the Hubble constant we have the formula:
c = H R
This is a linear approximation valid only below the curvature scale; so you are implicitly assuming a flat universe by using the Hubble relation.
 
johne1618 said:
If I use the relationship G M / R = c^2 / 2 for a spherical observable universe of Mass M and radius R
And this is a spherical mass distribution embedded in flat space...
 

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