Critical points of second derivative

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of the second derivative of a function, particularly focusing on critical points where the second derivative is zero. Participants explore the implications of the second derivative's sign and its relationship to concavity and inflection points.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that a change in the sign of the second derivative indicates a non-horizontal inflection point, while questioning the terminology for points where the second derivative is zero but does not change sign.
  • Another participant suggests that if the second derivative is zero and does not change sign, the third derivative must change sign.
  • Some participants discuss the concept of curvature, indicating that if the curvature is the same on both sides of a point where the second derivative is zero, the function is concave or convex but not strictly so.
  • There is mention of the term "jerk" for the third derivative of position, highlighting its significance in certain contexts.
  • One participant reflects on the nature of convexity, stating that a function can be strictly convex even if the second derivative is zero at a point, emphasizing that convexity is not solely defined by the second derivative.
  • A later reply acknowledges a correction regarding the understanding of convexity in relation to the second derivative.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of a zero second derivative and whether a specific term exists for such points. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the terminology and the implications of the third derivative.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions and assumptions about concavity, convexity, and the role of higher-order derivatives. The relationship between the second and third derivatives is not fully explored.

songoku
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TL;DR
By finding the critical points of f' (x) (point where f'(x) = 0 or f'(x) is undefined) and constructing the sign diagram for f', we can find point of relative maxima, relative minima and horizontal inflection of f

Using the same method for f", we can also find point where the concavity of f will change
If the sign on the sign diagram of f" changes from positive to negative or from negative to positive, this means the critical points of f" is non-horizontal inflection of f

But what about if the sign does not change? Let say f"(x) = 0 when ##x = a## and from sign diagram of f", the sign on the left and right of ##a## is both positive, what information can we get regarding point ##x=a## ? Is there a certain term to name that point?

Thanks
 
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If the second derivative hits zero but doesn't change sign, that means the third derivative changed sign.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_derivative

Vs

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_derivativ

As you can probably tell from the lack of content, people don't care that much about the third derivative.
 
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The curvature is in the same direction on both sides of a point that has a zero curvature only at that point. I have never heard a mathematical name for that. I would say that the function is concave but not strictly concave (or convex but not strictly convex) around that point. Of course, if the sign of the second derivative changes, it is an inflection point.
 
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Office_Shredder said:
As you can probably tell from the lack of content, people don't care that much about the third derivative.
The third derivative of position is "jerk", which can be significant sometimes.
 
FactChecker said:
The curvature is in the same direction on both sides of a point that has a zero curvature only at that point. I have never heard a mathematical name for that. I would say that the function is concave but not strictly concave (or convex but not strictly convex) around that point. Of course, if the sign of the second derivative changes, it is an inflection point.
If f'' is strictly positive except at a single point, I think f is strictly convex in an interval around that point. Convexity isn't defined by the second derivative being positive, it's just a useful test.

Equivalently and easier to think about, the function ##x^3## is strictly increasing even though the derivative is zero at one point.
 
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Office_Shredder said:
If f'' is strictly positive except at a single point, I think f is strictly convex in an interval around that point. Convexity isn't defined by the second derivative being positive, it's just a useful test.
I stand corrected. Thanks.
 
Thank you very much Office_Shredder and FactChecker
 

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