Curious does anyone play the piano

[JaredJames]

Because you're arguing a strawman. You are talking about trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard. The people you are arguing with aren't.

Firstly, the OP wants to play Elton John songs. Without sheet music it is "trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard", even with the chord pattern you are playing the melody by ear.

Secondly, I described listening to a song and attempting to recreate it as above (whether the whole piece or part of) and yet people have turned around and said that isn't playing by ear.

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now), however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

There is no strawman, there is simply a concept (definition even) which they are happily applying in one case but not another for no valid reason. You wouldn't accept it in physics, so why here?

 

[Ken Natton]

Firstly, the OP wants to play Elton John songs. Without sheet music it is "trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard", even with the chord pattern you are playing the melody by ear.

Secondly, I described listening to a song and attempting to recreate it as above (whether the whole piece or part of) and yet people have turned around and said that isn't playing by ear.

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now), however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

There is no strawman, there is simply a concept (definition even) which they are happily applying in one case but not another for no valid reason. You wouldn't accept it in physics, so why here?

Well, clearly Jared, your understanding of the term differs considerably from mine. And it really is not about anything so precise and scientific as physics. It’s about a term and how it is normally used. My understanding of the usage does not accord with yours. But what ever our respective understandings of the term, you still seem to me to be missing the core point about how popular songs are often created. Of course there are some with greater sophistication that are created by composers with a genuine understanding of tonal theory. But an awful lot of them are created by people who have no such understanding. Their talent is for creating sound sequences that connect with their target audience. They don’t need a deep knowledge of tonal theory to do so. But then neither do the people who wish to play those songs themselves need to put in the same amount of effort that they would to play a Mozart sonata or a Chopin waltz. Once you have grasped that they really are just simple chord sequences, those chord sequences are very easy to learn to play. And as I say, if you do that, it usually follows on quite naturally that you start to make up some of your own. It really isn’t very difficult.

 

[JaredJames]

Well, clearly Jared, your understanding of the term differs considerably from mine. And it really is not about anything so precise and scientific as physics. It’s about a term and how it is normally used. My understanding of the usage does not accord with yours.

We'll agree to disagree then, however I would be very interested how you would describe someone with a chord pattern for a piece, listening to said piece and then trying to play the melody, if not by the use of "playing by ear"?

But what ever our respective understandings of the term, you still seem to me to be missing the core point about how popular songs are often created. Of course there are some with greater sophistication that are created by composers with a genuine understanding of tonal theory. But an awful lot of them are created by people who have no such understanding. Their talent is for creating sound sequences that connect with their target audience. They don’t need a deep knowledge of tonal theory to do so. But then neither do the people who wish to play those songs themselves need to put in the same amount of effort that they would to play a Mozart sonata or a Chopin waltz. Once you have grasped that they really are just simple chord sequences, those chord sequences are very easy to learn to play. And as I say, if you do that, it usually follows on quite naturally that you start to make up some of your own. It really isn’t very difficult.

Again, for the fourth time, I understand all of this. For those unaware here, I studied music for most of my life both in and out of teaching environments (holding various qualifications and all that nonsense that goes with it). This stuff above and previously, I do not disagree with.

 

[Hurkyl]

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now) however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

There is no strawman,

If you think they are talking about "listening to and then recreating a piece", then you really don't understand what they are saying. Ms Music, for example, already explicitly clarified what she was talking about:

... create a chord chart ... they should be able to play along (without ever hearing the song) ... Without the studio musicians ever hearing the song.

 

[Pythagorean]

Usually, someone who is described as ‘playing by ear’ is someone who cannot read music at all, and would not have the faintest idea what was meant by ‘a chord of C major’ or ‘a chord of A minor’. All they do is work out how to play something that sounds like the piece that they have heard. I have encountered some people who are astonishingly good at it, and for someone who learned more formally, it is always a mystifying ability.

I think that's a bit of a generalization though. I play by ear, but I also know theory. Technically, I can read music, but I can't sight-read (and I haven't practiced sight-reading)

but I went through several periods of musical development

1. very young, piano lessons, hated it (monotonous)
2. high school, guitar, learned a couple chords, then started studying theory and technique on the internet. But mostly, I was always jamming with a friend of mine who got me interested in guitar. We'd just play. I eventually learned that the scale I had diddle in that i liked was called E minor harmonic and learned about triads and arpeggios and the harmonic series. Picked up the violin and the accordion a couple times, but never purchased my own. I love the breathing rhythm of the accordion though. During this phase, I would also fill cups up to different levels and try to get them into an A minor scale. I also remember using a microphone and a wah-wah pedal on my piano. I was very experimental with tonality and timbre at the time.
3. college, started my physics degree with a minor in music (later went from BA to BS in physics and dropped music, but not before getting through a year of theory and ear training; aced the theory, couldn't sing or sight read in the ear training, but never really practiced it and still don't have much interest. I actually think classical musical notation is terribly unintuitive and out of date. I still use tabs.)
4. musical death (physics degree took-over for a couple years)
5. mandolin bluegrass revival + drummer to jam prog rock with. Miss having a rhythm guitarist though.

wouldn't the circle of fifths and the way it all comes together be much more elegant in a mathematical formulation rather than letters with sharps and flats?

 

[JaredJames]

If you think they are talking about "listening to and then recreating a piece", then you really don't understand what they are saying. Ms Music, for example, already explicitly clarified what she was talking about:

For the fifth time, that part of what they are saying I understand. My comment on "listening to and then recreating a piece" was nothing to do with that. So not sure why you combined them. In fact, I'd consider that misinformation on your part. My original statement (emphasis mine):

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now) however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

I did not say that what they described in the latter posts was playing by ear. I said that the following is playing by ear:

If you are familiar with his music, it is easy to imitate his "artistic flourishes." (what I called "flowery") Unless you WANT to play it note for note like he does in studio, then you want the notation. But it sounded like the original poster was having a tough time finding good sheet music. You can find basic guitar tabs online, which aren't much different than a chord chart. Then pretend you are Elton John, and voila!

If the original poster is talented enough to play Elton John, (and it sounds like you have also) then that person (and you) would probably be able to figure out how to play Elton John's music by using chord charts. It just requires some thinking outside of the box, as you don't have sheet music in front of you. It was extremely awkward for me to learn in college, even if you looked at what classical music I was able to play all ready.

I don't know about others here, but to me that reads as "if you like Elton John but can't get sheet music, get a chord chart and then try and recreate the piece (possibly in your own way)." with the obvious requirement of having heard the EJ song you want to play. This would come under playing by ear.

If you've never heard an Elton John song, the chance of you sitting at a piano and playing one of his pieces is slim to none, chord chart or not. In order to do the above, you must have listened to it, which makes what you are doing playing by ear - aka, listening to the melody and trying to reproduce it with the assistance of a chord chart. I'd be very interested in seeing a studio performer play the melody of a lady gaga song without ever hearing it and only having a chord chart.

 

[Hurkyl]

If you've never heard an Elton John song, the chance of you sitting at a piano and playing one of his pieces is slim to none, chord chart or not. In order to do the above, you must have listened to it, which makes what you are doing playing by ear - aka, listening to the melody and trying to reproduce it with the assistance of a chord chart.

If you're trying to reproduce the specific notes, then yes you are playing it by ear. If you're merely trying to reproduce the style, then no, you are not playing it by ear.


I was going to use "Symphony for the Devil" as an example of the sort of thing. All you really need is chords, melody, and "woo woo", and are playing the song. (And you probably don't even need all three to be recognizable) I picked this because I remember being at a friends house and a CD with a dozen variations of the song was playing quietly in the background, even in very different styles, and it was still clear what the song was. (at least once "woo woo" started)

Then I fired it up in youtube, I was still surprised at just how utterly generic the piano part was. If the video on youtube had a completely different piano part with the same chords in the style of 60-70s rock, I'm not certain I would have consciously noticed.


That's what I took Ms Music's comment to mean after she clarified -- that Elton John is very similar. I just fired up one song at random in youtube (Sorry Seems to be the Hardest Word), I agree.

I think that if you had given be a chord chart and told me to "with the right hand, play on each beat without much variation", I would have a good chance of having played nearly the same right-hand part I heard in the youtube video, despite having never heard the song before. I think the biggest random factor is whether or not I guess correctly at what pitch to keep the top notes of the chords hovering about. (so that I get the inversions right)

 

[Ken Natton]

I think that's a bit of a generalization though. I play by ear, but I also know theory.

Yeah, I didn’t mean to say that it is proscribed that anyone who plays by ear must not know any musical theory, I was just saying that it is more normally the case, because the very reason that they play by ear is because they have no other access to being able to play.

Whatever, let’s take this conversation in a more positive direction.

wouldn't the circle of fifths and the way it all comes together be much more elegant in a mathematical formulation rather than letters with sharps and flats?

I always think that it a key thing to understand about Mozart that he was someone with an exceptional mathematical ability. The cycle of keys and relationships between keys is all very mathematical and it is something Mozart understood at an instinctive level. He had an extraordinary ability to make several modulations that you don’t even notice until you suddenly realize that you are somewhere very distant from where you started. But I am not among those who criticize Mozart’s music as something that is too mathematical. I believe his music to be among the most profound. I studied the G minor symphony for ‘O level’ and it remains a piece that speaks very deeply to me.

Chopin studies Op 25 No 11 ("Winter Wind") and No 12 ("Ocean") are examples of such works. In the "Ocean" study, almost every bar (measure) of music is simply based on one chord, but contains 32 notes.

The thing with Chopin is that that he is famous for his unusual harmonies and his unusual and complex harmonic sequences. And what he was the absolute master of was keeping the rhythmic left hand part constant while taking a right hand part that started as a simple melodic sequence of just four or five notes and steadily making it ever more complex until you get a sequence of something like 23 notes played in the time of five where the original five note sequence is still audible within the long and complex sequence. And of course, the technique required to play it well is something that takes hours and hours of hard work to develop. Let me be clear, it is an ability I do not have.

 

[JaredJames]

If you're trying to reproduce the specific notes, then yes you are playing it by ear. If you're merely trying to reproduce the style, then no, you are not playing it by ear.

Oh, of course the style isn't. See what you're on about there.

But as above and in the context of the OP, I took it to mean trying to play a specific song of his.

Anyhow, bit of a busy day ahead (what with the rapture and everything ) so must shoot off for a while.

 

[Awesomesauce]

Well, I would suggest to you that it is not what is generally meant by ‘playing by ear’. Usually, someone who is described as ‘playing by ear’ is someone who cannot read music at all, and would not have the faintest idea what was meant by ‘a chord of C major’ or ‘a chord of A minor’. All they do is work out how to play something that sounds like the piece that they have heard. I have encountered some people who are astonishingly good at it, and for someone who learned more formally, it is always a mystifying ability.

Although playing a designated chord sequence is not playing from sheet music, neither is it playing by ear. Nor is it improvisation. Just because you are not reading from a manuscript, you're still playing a pre-planned sequence. And again, I would suggest to you it is the way that a fair proportion of pop musicians operate. They learn one chord sequence for the verse, shift to a second sequence for the hook, and possibly a third one for the middle eight. And that’s it. Put a Mozart sonata in front of them and they wouldn’t have a clue. But it is still not playing by ear. Or not what is usually meant by that term.

Someone who is described as playing by ear does not necessarily mean they cannot read music. Playing by ear simply means someone who listens to a piece (however many times), and can recreate the melody without any sheet music. There are many people who can play both by ear and read from sheets very well. It's not always disconnected.
That's it.

 

[Pythagorean]

I always think that it a key thing to understand about Mozart that he was someone with an exceptional mathematical ability. The cycle of keys and relationships between keys is all very mathematical and it is something Mozart understood at an instinctive level. He had an extraordinary ability to make several modulations that you don’t even notice until you suddenly realize that you are somewhere very distant from where you started. But I am not among those who criticize Mozart’s music as something that is too mathematical. I believe his music to be among the most profound. I studied the G minor symphony for ‘O level’ and it remains a piece that speaks very deeply to me.

I don't like most of Mozart's pieces either, much like I don't like most Jazz pieces. Mostly because (it think this is another perspective of the same thing you're saying) it lacks a holistic glue.

Of course, when the holistic glue is there, Mozart's pieces are fantastic! And there's some neat little riffs that come out of his pieces like in Piano Sonata No.12 in F Major K.332 he demonstrates a circle of filths progression that sounds very ahead of his time.

it's around 1:17 on this video

88Golzb39Mo [/youtube] I think ...n about mastering modulation (any tips, heh?)

 

[atyy]

Firstly, the OP wants to play Elton John songs. Without sheet music it is "trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard", even with the chord pattern you are playing the melody by ear.

Secondly, I described listening to a song and attempting to recreate it as above (whether the whole piece or part of) and yet people have turned around and said that isn't playing by ear.

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now), however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

I agree.

BTW, sure sounds like flowery chord charts to me!

 

[turbo]

Someone who is described as playing by ear does not necessarily mean they cannot read music. Playing by ear simply means someone who listens to a piece (however many times), and can recreate the melody without any sheet music. There are many people who can play both by ear and read from sheets very well. It's not always disconnected.
That's it.

I could sight-read for brass instruments, but never learned to sight-read for guitar. That's all "by ear". As Chet Atkins said "I'm confessin' I never took a lesson. All my notes are a matter of guessin'"

I took a music theory course in college, and for one particular assignment, I had to compose a piece, write the proper notation for the piece, and perform the piece in front of the class. I wrote a snappy little finger-picking piece for my 12-string guitar in about 15 minutes or so, then spent all the rest of Sunday afternoon transcribing it. When I performed it, the instructor said "wait right there" after the first run-through, and went out to find another instructor who was more familiar with guitar, then had me play the piece again, to see if my notation appeared to be accurate - the guy nodded and left. Of course, I was playing the piece from memory. There is no way that I could perform that piece from sheet music.

 

[Hurkyl]

There is no way that I could perform that piece from sheet music.

I can't play piano from sheet music either. I use it to learn the piece, of course, but to really be able to play it it has to be memorized.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

I can't play piano from sheet music either. I use it to learn the piece, of course, but to really be able to play it it has to be memorized.

There's a bit of difference between the "learning it into your fingers" level of memorizing and the "being able to play without the sheet music" level.

I'm still trying to decide whether my memory is reliable enough for me to play the Rachmaninoff without the sheet music next month. I've performed the first movement of the Grieg and the last movement of Tchaik violin concerto from memory, but the Rachmaninoff is closer to my limits!

 

[elabed haidar]

Playing by ear is listening to a piece and then playing it.

I understand what you have described above (give someone the chords for a piece and they can play along to someone with the melody).

However, it is impossible for you to play an Elton John (or any) piece - the melody/accompaniment piano part - without hearing it first. How would you know you're playing it? How would you know what to play?

So it's one or the other. You are either just playing the chords along to the melody, or you are trying to improvise the melody - the latter requiring a prior hearing of said melody.

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. To improvise an Elton John song (or any) is to play by ear.

who said I am with the idea of playing by ear?? I am with you here , i just want to play elton john. I just want to know if there is a paino sheet for him , i know it takes time but i really like his songs

 

[turbo]

Just Google on "Elton John sheet music". There are tons of resources.

 

[Ouabache]

I play piano. Before doing so I already had sight-read training in classical and jazz styles on wind instrument, chord & finger pick styles guitar and banjo and flat picking mandolin. Having had previous musical training, made it much easier to learn piano. I am glad to hear others memorize pieces or at least use muscle memory to play fluently. I was worried I wasn't learning to read properly by relying more on memory.

 

[elabed haidar]

I play piano. Before doing so I already had sight-read training in classical and jazz styles on wind instrument, chord & finger pick styles guitar and banjo and flat picking mandolin. Having had previous musical training, made it much easier to learn piano. I am glad to hear others memorize pieces or at least use muscle memory to play fluently. I was worried I wasn't learning to read properly by relying more on memory.

niceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[ThomasT]

I play a bit. Just an amateur who doesn't sight read. After playing guitar in the classical style, and a bit of violin and flute for a few years, I spent a few years getting comfortable on the keyboard. It's my favorite hobby.

At the risk of offending anyone's musical sensibilities here's some links to a few of my tunes:

Incongruent Configuration III

For Dixie on a Cool Summer Night

The Tying Run Is On Bass

 

[CRichard]

Hey guys, I just stumbled on this thread. ThomasT, those pieces sound fantastic! You sound great on the piano, and the melodies are really cool too.

Elabed Haldar, if you want free Elton john sheet music, I would recommend the website, Elton John's Music Cafe. It has the sheet music that this guy transcribed by ear off of many of Elton's live performances. All the sections are great, but the "Dessert" section has great arrangements of some of his classic songs. And you can really see how much his music is based fancy, interesting variations on simple chord sequences.

I would also recommend the Elton John keyboard book if you want to play what Elton himself played in the studio recordings. It has the vocal part, but only on the top line, so if you play the bottom 2 lines of piano without singing, it can sound kind of empty. I like it, though, because you can really appreciate Elton's playing.

 

[elabed haidar]

thank you man very very much Crichard ,that was exactly what i was looking for

 

[ThomasT]

Hey guys, I just stumbled on this thread. ThomasT, those pieces sound fantastic! You sound great on the piano, and the melodies are really cool too.

Thanks CRichard. But let's be honest ... they're pretty sloppy. Anyway, it's a great hobby and I have lots of fun trying to come up with stuff that I at least don't consciously copy from other stuff I've heard. But everything is derivative in some way or other.

You have any stuff you can link to? Let's hear it. I hope others will post some of their stuff also.

My next project is going to be learning some Debussy and Bach stuff. The easier stuff of course. But it's all good.

Keep playing

 

[ThomasT]

It would be interesting to hear what others are playing on. Currently, I only have a Casio WK 210, 76 key portable. I'm getting back into it so will probably get a Yamaha dgx or something similar in the next few weeks. These keyboards are not exactly like playing a real piano, but they have lots of capabilities and they do have touch control and of course you can hook up a sustain pedal to them.

I'll post some organ stuff later when I get time.

Let's hear some of your stuff!

 

[Jonathan Scott]

It would be interesting to hear what others are playing on. Currently, I only have a Casio WK 210, 76 key portable. I'm getting back into it so will probably get a Yamaha dgx or something similar in the next few weeks. These keyboards are not exactly like playing a real piano, but they have lots of capabilities and they do have touch control and of course you can hook up a sustain pedal to them.

I'll post some organ stuff later when I get time.

Let's hear some of your stuff!

My main piano is a Young Chang (same as Weber) G-157 (5 foot) grand. It has a slightly weightier touch than the average grand piano, but that's not bad because it helps ensure that my finger strength is well up to handling any piano I'm likely to play in concert. It is unfortunately not very portable.

I have recently bought a Roland FP-7F as a digital keyboard which has a realistic touch with weighted keys and fairly realistic piano sound (or so they claim - they call it "SuperNatural"). It is portable enough - about 36kg (79lb) including its stand - for me to be able to pick it up on my own and put it in the car, although it isn't as well protected for transport as my old keyboard. The idea is mainly to provide a usable piano for rehearsal purposes in the rehearsal hall for the two orchestras in which I play.

The FP-7F has built-in 12W speakers which are adequate for home use and for quieter classical stuff but for a full grand piano sound I also have a pair of Mackie SRM350v2 powered speakers, which produce a little bit of background hiss all the time but otherwise seem very promising. I tried four other sets of speakers first - the first two pairs weren't powerful enough and distorted too much on bass notes; the third pair (QSC-K10) was really compact but gave excellent power and sound quality for the first few seconds but then an intolerably loud fan cut in; the fourth pair had persistent noise and both of the pair had faults (but different ones), but I finally settled for the SRM350v2 pair. I'm still not yet sure what this will be like in practice, but on Friday I will be rehearsing the 1st movement of Rach 2 with the orchestra, so I guess I will find out.

I also have an old (1992) Technics Digital Ensemble PR-350 keyboard which has a slightly weighted keyboard but not enough to be realistic, and more powerful built-in speakers. It has a hard keyboard cover and is more robust in many ways for moving purposes. However, it is so heavy (84kg / 185lb) that I couldn't move it on my own. I've kept it for now - it means that the kids can both practise keyboard in the same room at the same time on headphones.

I used to have a Welmar upright piano from the 1930s as well, which was the instrument on which I learned to play 50 years ago, but that had to go to make space for the FP-7F.

 

[elabed haidar]

I only have a Casio AT-1 , it has been in my hous for 8 years and its still works very well

 

[ThomasT]

My main piano is a Young Chang (same as Weber) G-157 (5 foot) grand. It has a slightly weightier touch than the average grand piano, but that's not bad because it helps ensure that my finger strength is well up to handling any piano I'm likely to play in concert. It is unfortunately not very portable.

I have recently bought a Roland FP-7F as a digital keyboard which has a realistic touch with weighted keys and fairly realistic piano sound (or so they claim - they call it "SuperNatural"). It is portable enough - about 36kg (79lb) including its stand - for me to be able to pick it up on my own and put it in the car, although it isn't as well protected for transport as my old keyboard. The idea is mainly to provide a usable piano for rehearsal purposes in the rehearsal hall for the two orchestras in which I play.

The FP-7F has built-in 12W speakers which are adequate for home use and for quieter classical stuff but for a full grand piano sound I also have a pair of Mackie SRM350v2 powered speakers, which produce a little bit of background hiss all the time but otherwise seem very promising. I tried four other sets of speakers first - the first two pairs weren't powerful enough and distorted too much on bass notes; the third pair (QSC-K10) was really compact but gave excellent power and sound quality for the first few seconds but then an intolerably loud fan cut in; the fourth pair had persistent noise and both of the pair had faults (but different ones), but I finally settled for the SRM350v2 pair. I'm still not yet sure what this will be like in practice, but on Friday I will be rehearsing the 1st movement of Rach 2 with the orchestra, so I guess I will find out.

I also have an old (1992) Technics Digital Ensemble PR-350 keyboard which has a slightly weighted keyboard but not enough to be realistic, and more powerful built-in speakers. It has a hard keyboard cover and is more robust in many ways for moving purposes. However, it is so heavy (84kg / 185lb) that I couldn't move it on my own. I've kept it for now - it means that the kids can both practise keyboard in the same room at the same time on headphones.

I used to have a Welmar upright piano from the 1930s as well, which was the instrument on which I learned to play 50 years ago, but that had to go to make space for the FP-7F.

Wow! I enjoyed reading that. It would be great if you could post some examples of your playing. Then, maybe you could field some questions regarding various aspects of it? Thanks.

I might go ahead and get one of the hammer-action, weighted digital keyboards. Something that feels more like a real piano, but still light enough to cart around easily. It'll be a few hundred more, but well worth it considering that I haven't played in several years and will require months of just building the strength in my hands and fingers again.

Found this at youtube ... what a supernice keyboard.

cZweKdIw-iQ&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[ThomasT]

I only have a Casio AT-1 , it has been in my hous for 8 years and its still works very well

That's a cool keyboard! Post some of your music. Thanks.

I found this at youtube:


Au-z44NHWQ0[/youtube]

 

[Ms Music]

1st movement of Rach 2 with the orchestra

*envy envy envy*

 

[ThomasT]

I just finished reading each and every post in this thread. There are lots of pianists/keyboardists at PF whose stuff it would be greatly entertaining to hear. So let's get crankin' on posting your links.

Hey, I'm not going to be shy about presenting some of my tunes. Here's a few more:

The Complementary Muse

October Passage

Summer On The Seine

Suite Organic Prospects II

Interlude For A Fallen Friend