Curious does anyone play the piano

[Ken Natton]

Here’s the story of my piano. I lived alone in a terraced house. Don’t know if the American’s on this site will quite understand what a terraced house is, but the essential point is that any kind of serious practice would have been highly likely to annoy the neighbours. At least, that was my excuse for not doing any. I even did look seriously into soundproofing one of my rooms, but apart from the prohibitive cost, the real problem was just how much it would have reduced the size of the room. Then I went to the Leeds Piano Competition in 2006, and in the program for that event was an advertisement for a Yamaha silent piano. My immediate reaction was that they couldn’t really be all that good. So I went to a local piano show room and played one, and here’s the news. They really are just that good. With the silent mechanism disengaged, it is a normal upright acoustic piano, and actually a very nice one. But you have the option to engage the silent mechanism, which simply stops the hammers striking the strings, then switch on the electronics and don your headphones. And the result is superb. Just as touch sensitive, just as expressive, and actually sounds like you are playing a big grand piano in an echoey concert hall. They are just wonderful, and I should stress that I have no shares in Yamaha nor any family or friends that work for them.

Of course, it was only because I was single at the time that I could justify the expense of buying one. Now, as a family man, there is of course no way I could possibly have afforded to buy one. And now I live in a detached house and there is only my family members to annoy I don’t often use the silent mode. So now I do hours and hours of serious practice, right? No, of course not. But a huge pleasure to have such a nice piano.

 

[ThomasT]

Here’s the story of my piano. I lived alone in a terraced house. Don’t know if the American’s on this site will quite understand what a terraced house is, but the essential point is that any kind of serious practice would have been highly likely to annoy the neighbours. At least, that was my excuse for not doing any. I even did look seriously into soundproofing one of my rooms, but apart from the prohibitive cost, the real problem was just how much it would have reduced the size of the room. Then I went to the Leeds Piano Competition in 2006, and in the program for that event was an advertisement for a Yamaha silent piano. My immediate reaction was that they couldn’t really be all that good. So I went to a local piano show room and played one, and here’s the news. They really are just that good. With the silent mechanism disengaged, it is a normal upright acoustic piano, and actually a very nice one. But you have the option to engage the silent mechanism, which simply stops the hammers striking the strings, then switch on the electronics and don your headphones. And the result is superb. Just as touch sensitive, just as expressive, and actually sounds like you are playing a big grand piano in an echoey concert hall. They are just wonderful, and I should stress that I have no shares in Yamaha nor any family or friends that work for them.

Of course, it was only because I was single at the time that I could justify the expense of buying one. Now, as a family man, there is of course no way I could possibly have afforded to buy one. And now I live in a detached house and there is only my family members to annoy I don’t often use the silent mode. So now I do hours and hours of serious practice, right? No, of course not. But a huge pleasure to have such a nice piano.

Thanks Ken, that piano sounds like it would be great for all sorts of urban living situations. Still, it would seem that there are more compact and inexpensive solutions available -- though they wouldn't provide the same real piano feel. Close though.

I've never been in a terraced house, but I can imagine the privacy issues.

Can we hear some of your playing?

Found this on youtube -- Yamaha makes great instruments:

 

[JaredJames]

Then I went to the Leeds Piano Competition in 2006, and in the program for that event was an advertisement for a Yamaha silent piano. My immediate reaction was that they couldn’t really be all that good. So I went to a local piano show room and played one, and here’s the news. They really are just that good. With the silent mechanism disengaged, it is a normal upright acoustic piano, and actually a very nice one. But you have the option to engage the silent mechanism, which simply stops the hammers striking the strings, then switch on the electronics and don your headphones. And the result is superb. Just as touch sensitive, just as expressive, and actually sounds like you are playing a big grand piano in an echoey concert hall. They are just wonderful, and I should stress that I have no shares in Yamaha nor any family or friends that work for them.

That sounds horrendously over engineered. If it sounds exactly like an acoustic whilst using the electronics, why not just stick with them and cut out the need for strings and tuning?

I have a Yamaha (can't remember the model) and it's electronic. It's full size, weighs a fair bit and has a fantastic sound to it. Personally, unless I had plenty of room and knew full well I'd never have to move it, I wouldn't bother with an acoustic. Although I really would love a grand piano.

 

[turbo]

Although I really would love a grand piano.

My cousin had a baby grand until he had to move to Australia to manage a defense project. Since he was with GE at the time, they might have paid for storage during his 5+ years in OZ. I'll have to ask him next time he comes back to visit his parents. It was a fantastic-sounding instrument.

He started taking lessons as an adult, and he progressed quite quickly, IMO. His teacher was my old music teacher in elementary school, and i mean OLD. Her first real job was playing piano for the silent movies at a local theater. Even into her late 90's she played piano for the Rotary Club and gave lessons. She passed away in 2002 at the age of 100.

 

[ThomasT]

That sounds horrendously over engineered. If it sounds exactly like an acoustic whilst using the electronics, why not just stick with them and cut out the need for strings and tuning?

I have a Yamaha (can't remember the model) and it's electronic. It's full size, weighs a fair bit and has a fantastic sound to it. Personally, unless I had plenty of room and knew full well I'd never have to move it, I wouldn't bother with an acoustic. Although I really would love a grand piano.

Good point(s) Jared. Still, it's cool to have the 'exactly' genuine acoustic sound and feel when you want it. Sitting down to a regular size acoustic piano puts me into a playing mood or mode that's sometimes difficult to get to with just the smaller digital instruments. Nevertheless, I'm sure I'll not buy anything but digital from here on out.

Do you have any of your music on the internet that you can link to?

 

[JaredJames]

Do you have any of your music on the internet that you can link to?

Nothing I'm aware of. Haven't played much recently due to being away from home, so don't have much chance.

 

[Pythagorean]

I love the exact pressure sensitivity of acoustic stringed pianos. Even the weighted, electronic emulators can't do it right.

I wish I had some music recorded. I mostly only have rifts though, no official pieces. I just kind of string them together and improvise.

 

[JaredJames]

I must say, I do prefer the feel of an acoustic. However, as per above they are just too awkward to own.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

I love the exact pressure sensitivity of acoustic stringed pianos. Even the weighted, electronic emulators can't do it right.

Even though the keyboard on my expensive Roland FP-7F feels quite realistic, I have difficulty balancing the sound between the fingers in the same way as on my real piano. I tend to get "bumps" of over-loud notes, especially on the black keys. I get the impression that the digital keyboard is somehow more sensitive to the speed of pressing a key than to the weight behind it. I know that the two should be closely related, but for example I can play fast but quietly more easily on the real piano.

I also suspect all of my digital keyboards have always had a special feature that makes wrong notes sound much louder than right ones!

 

[Ken Natton]

If it sounds exactly like an acoustic whilst using the electronics, why not just stick with them and cut out the need for strings and tuning?

Well the first point about maintaining the acoustic option is if you want to have a social sing-song at the piano. Not very common these days I know, but sometimes my wife and I have a little sing together – guaranteed to make the kids scramble for their iPods and headphones. Also, even if you just wish to perform for anyone it is better with the acoustic piano. You can connect external speakers to get the silent mode to play out loud, but it isn’t as good as the proper acoustic sound – that of course can be a question of the quality of your speakers. If you want to perform for just one other person, the silent electronics does have two headphone sockets – but then of course you need two pairs of headphones. Headphone quality is another issue and it would make no sense at all to pay the kind of money you need to, to buy a silent piano and then get a cheap low quality pair of headphones.

Ultimately, as others have suggested, where the option is there, I always prefer to play acoustically, but it is nice to have the option to play late at night, or even just to practice something without anyone hearing my clumsy efforts. But I must reinforce the point that it is nothing like playing any electronic keyboard that I have ever played. Even when the silent mechanism is engaged, the hammer mechanism still operates, the hammers are just prevented from hitting the strings. That means that the weight feel is exactly the same as when you are playing acoustically. And the tone generator is very responsive to your touch. There is some very clever technology to detect the speed of your key press as well as the weight.

I have the U3 model, it does not have the range of sounds demonstrated in the video clip ThomasT linked to. Neither does it have the facility to record. But what it does have is a MIDI interface, so I can connect it to my computer and record that way. I am making no promises ThomasT, but if I get some time soon, I may try and record something and post it here.

 

[JaredJames]

Well the first point about maintaining the acoustic option is if you want to have a social sing-song at the piano. Not very common these days I know, but sometimes my wife and I have a little sing together – guaranteed to make the kids scramble for their iPods and headphones.

My point was that if the acoustic sound is that good, why not just have the piano minus the strings assembly and then insert a few quality speakers.

 

[mishrashubham]

Even though the keyboard on my expensive Roland FP-7F feels quite realistic, I have difficulty balancing the sound between the fingers in the same way as on my real piano. I tend to get "bumps" of over-loud notes, especially on the black keys. I get the impression that the digital keyboard is somehow more sensitive to the speed of pressing a key than to the weight behind it.

Same here. I always have a hard time controlling my hand so as to not press the black keys too hard on my digital keyboard.. They always seem to sound much louder even though I put only as much effort.

And yes, touch sensitivity is measured by pressing velocity (at least in my keyboard and apparently yours as well)

I also suspect all of my digital keyboards have always had a special feature that makes wrong notes sound much louder than right ones!

hehe I couldn't agree more.

 

[Ken Natton]

Can we hear some of your playing?

I found some recordings I made using my brand new silent piano back in early 2007. I tried to post them here but they are .wav files and it doesn’t seem to be that I can attach them. I confess that I had not appreciated that your links were actually to another website on which you had put your recordings. I am not in your class Thomas so perhaps it is not so bad really that I don’t seem to be able to post the files.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

Tonight I rehearsed Rach 2 1st movement on my Roland FP-7F with the orchestra. It went well, but I'm even less impressed with the digital keyboard. The sound was very "muddy" and lacked focus. For some odd reason, when I play a new note on the keyboard, it doesn't stand out from the existing sustained notes in the way it does on a real piano. I think it's the piano, not the speakers, as I get the same effect on headphones when I play loudly.

I note that Roland claim that their latest top end pianos have "Sound Focus" technology. Now that I've experienced their sound without that technology, I think they need it.

Fortunately, the concert will be on a real piano.

 

[Ms Music]

Fortunately, the concert will be on a real piano.

Best of luck to you! I have always thought it would be a fun challenge to attempt that piece (or 1 or 3), but my hands are too small...

 

[AlephZero]

I note that Roland claim that their latest top end pianos have "Sound Focus" technology. Now that I've experienced their sound without that technology, I think they need it.

That is a common problem with sample-based instruments, because there is no interaction between the samples for each note. The result is more like having 88 separate pianos each with one note, compared with one "real" piano.

A good demo of what is misisng is to silently press and hold down say the C below middle C and the octave below, then play a short loud middle C. On a real piano, you hear the resonance of the other undamped notes ringing on. On a digital piano - maybe, maybe not.

Another test is play and hold a big chord, then depress and release the sustain pedal a few times while holding the notes with your fingers. If you can't hear the resonance of the other strings kicking in and out, it isn't going to sound like a real acoustic piano.

I think "physical modelling" is the way to go over this. The technology isn't completely there yet, but give it another 10 years or so to develop...

This is a good example of where the technology has got to so far: http://www.pianoteq.com

It certainly passes the above tests correctly. It also includes things like the effect of the hammer impacting a string that is already vibrating, so repeated notes don't sound like machine gun fire, and (just like a real piano) you get occasional random "mis-hits" when playing trills etc.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

That is a common problem with sample-based instruments, because there is no interaction between the samples for each note. The result is more like having 88 separate pianos each with one note, compared with one "real" piano.

A good demo of what is misisng is to silently press and hold down say the C below middle C and the octave below, then play a short loud middle C. On a real piano, you hear the resonance of the other undamped notes ringing on. On a digital piano - maybe, maybe not.

Another test is play and hold a big chord, then depress and release the sustain pedal a few times while holding the notes with your fingers. If you can't hear the resonance of the other strings kicking in and out, it isn't going to sound like a real acoustic piano.

I think "physical modelling" is the way to go over this. The technology isn't completely there yet, but give it another 10 years or so to develop...

This is a good example of where the technology has got to so far: http://www.pianoteq.com

It certainly passes the above tests correctly. It also includes things like the effect of the hammer impacting a string that is already vibrating, so repeated notes don't sound like machine gun fire, and (just like a real piano) you get occasional random "mis-hits" when playing trills etc.

The Roland FP-7F's "SuperNatural" sound has quite sophisticated sound modelling using a mixture of samples and synthesis. It's much better than previous keyboards I've tried for producing a gently graded tone and volume as you get louder, instead of having sudden changes in tone as you exceed thresholds. It certainly includes the above resonance cases, and if you press the damper pedal suddenly you hear the same sort of noise as on a real piano. However, they somehow seem to have lost the clarity of a melody line which I can easily achieve on a real piano. Also, the samples in the middle octave are somewhat unpleasant at medium volume, with an underlying electronic buzz sound.

 

[ThomasT]

I found some recordings I made using my brand new silent piano back in early 2007. I tried to post them here but they are .wav files and it doesn’t seem to be that I can attach them. I confess that I had not appreciated that your links were actually to another website on which you had put your recordings.

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been in and out of the hospital during the past few months. Just got back from the latest stay yesterday afternoon.

You can easily convert/compress any of your .wav files to .mp3 files. I use LAME. Here's a link to their current offerings: http://lame.sourceforge.net/links.php

And there are dozens of places which will host your mp3s for free. SoundClick.com is one of the best and gets a lot of traffic.

 

[Ken Natton]

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been in and out of the hospital during the past few months. Just got back from the latest stay yesterday afternoon.

You can easily convert/compress any of your .wav files to .mp3 files. I use LAME. Here's a link to their current offerings: http://lame.sourceforge.net/links.php

And there are dozens of places which will host your mp3s for free. SoundClick.com is one of the best and gets a lot of traffic.

Hi Thomas, sorry to hear that you have had some health problems, I hope you are recovered and feeling stronger.

I have to say Thomas, I am loath to overestimate the degree of interest anyone would have in listening to my playing. Still, an interesting website that SoundClick. I had not come across it before.

 

[Hurkyl]

I love the exact pressure sensitivity of acoustic stringed pianos. Even the weighted, electronic emulators can't do it right.

I've always felt like real pianos were sluggish to respond, and I had to strike the keys rather hard just to get medium volume out of it. Or worse, trying to play softly, but wind up having some keypresses not actually result in a sound. But, then again, I doubt I've ever played on a particularly good piano.

Of course, I felt the opposite of old electronic keyboards -- that they had a hair trigger and it was rather difficult to actually get soft sounds out of them.

 

[elabed haidar]

man playing on a real piano is so much better than any electronic piano , i rememeber when i was a kid and played a beautiful symphony for mozart , in front of many people, wowwwwwwwwwwwwww i wish to find this feeling again after i threw it away , for 6 years i stopped but now , IM BACK .

 

[thegreenlaser]

I played piano for 6 years in elementary/junior high before I got 'cool' and switched to guitar. I've started playing occasionally again, but I'm not nearly at the level I was (At least from a technical standpoint. Musically, I've grown a lot.) I have a digital piano, and I remember once I got into the higher levels of piano (grade 8 out of 10) I really did start to notice a difference between my piano and my teacher's baby grand. Somehow, the 'feel' of your playing comes out more in a real piano than a digital. Of course, that's a piano that's now ten years old, and it still took me six years of playing to start really noticing a difference. I imagine technology has improved to a point where I'd have trouble actually noticing a difference now rather than just imagining one.

I think "physical modelling" is the way to go over this. The technology isn't completely there yet, but give it another 10 years or so to develop...

This is a good example of where the technology has got to so far: http://www.pianoteq.com

It certainly passes the above tests correctly. It also includes things like the effect of the hammer impacting a string that is already vibrating, so repeated notes don't sound like machine gun fire, and (just like a real piano) you get occasional random "mis-hits" when playing trills etc.

I'm actually doing a research project later this summer with this very topic. I won't be tackling anything more than probably a single guitar string or something, since I'm only done my freshman year and the emphasis is more on the modeling techniques, but physical modeling of instruments is a very interesting subject that I have a feeling I might get into more when I'm a little more advanced. I think I'd be more likely to go into electric guitar modelling than piano modeling, however.

 

[ThomasT]

Hi Thomas, sorry to hear that you have had some health problems, I hope you are recovered and feeling stronger.

I have to say Thomas, I am loath to overestimate the degree of interest anyone would have in listening to my playing. Still, an interesting website that SoundClick. I had not come across it before.

Thanks Ken, it's a long process. we'll see how the new medicine does. Re SoundClick.com, from my ramblings through the offerings there, there is a surprisingly substantial quantity of well played, and otherwise unpublished afaik, music. Both original as well as covers in just about every genre. Might you be playing classical compositions, or covers in other genres -- or your own creations?

No need to estimate the degree of interest anyone would have in listening to your playing. I'm interested in listening (to anything that anyone here has to offer), and I'm sure others will listen. It usually just takes a few minutes of networking to get some honest feedback. That's at least one reason why we like to play (and compose), isn't it? I present my little tunes in the hope that some listeners will find 'something' about them that they like.

Anyway, this is just another of those things that one might do given a bit of extra time, and of course it also depends somewhat on the degree to which one might be 'immersed' in this wonderful hobby.

 

[ThomasT]

man playing on a real piano is so much better than any electronic piano , i rememeber when i was a kid and played a beautiful symphony for mozart , in front of many people, wowwwwwwwwwwwwww i wish to find this feeling again after i threw it away , for 6 years i stopped but now , IM BACK .

Welcome back!

 

[ThomasT]

The Roland FP-7F's "SuperNatural" sound has quite sophisticated sound modelling using a mixture of samples and synthesis. It's much better than previous keyboards I've tried for producing a gently graded tone and volume as you get louder, instead of having sudden changes in tone as you exceed thresholds. It certainly includes the above resonance cases, and if you press the damper pedal suddenly you hear the same sort of noise as on a real piano. However, they somehow seem to have lost the clarity of a melody line which I can easily achieve on a real piano. Also, the samples in the middle octave are somewhat unpleasant at medium volume, with an underlying electronic buzz sound.

Too bad about those technical issues. Is there any chance you can trade yours in (and get higher value than if you sold it) for one of the one's where they've supposedly retained the clarity of the melody line?

Anyway, that FP-7F is an exceptionally nice keyboard. It's on my growing list of keyboards to check out first hand before I exceed my hobby budget.

I just listened to some of the piano concerto that you've been rehearsing. Played by the composer. Beautiful stuff.

 

[Ken Natton]

I hear what you are saying Thomas, and I agree it is an interesting website. The old recordings that I found and that I was going to post here, one was a piano arrangement of the Barbra Streisand song ‘Evergreen’ and another was a piano only arrangement of the theme music from the film ‘On Golden Pond’. Whatever the clumsiness of my playing, I felt that they were both quite good demonstrations of the expressive possibilities of the silent tone generator, which is what was actually under discussion. There were also recordings of two different Bach three part inventions I had thought to post just as proof that I did do some hard work after I first got the silent piano! In any case, I’ll spend a little longer exploring SoundClick.com and who knows, perhaps I’ll convince myself that it is worth posting something there.

 

[ThomasT]

I hear what you are saying Thomas, and I agree it is an interesting website. The old recordings that I found and that I was going to post here, one was a piano arrangement of the Barbra Streisand song ‘Evergreen’ and another was a piano only arrangement of the theme music from the film ‘On Golden Pond’. Whatever the clumsiness of my playing, I felt that they were both quite good demonstrations of the expressive possibilities of the silent tone generator, which is what was actually under discussion. There were also recordings of two different Bach three part inventions I had thought to post just as proof that I did do some hard work after I first got the silent piano! In any case, I’ll spend a little longer exploring SoundClick.com and who knows, perhaps I’ll convince myself that it is worth posting something there.

Ok Ken. The main thing is to have fun. SoundClick is just one of many many online 'platforms' where independent musicians and composers post their stuff. There's no downside to it. After all, it's free.

I like the tunes you mention above, and my intuition tells me that you play them beautifully. Years ago I got into the Bach stuff you mention, and the Well Tempered Clavier, etc. Part of the reason I opted to concentrate pretty much solely on original stuff and improvs is because I know that I'll never be able to play Bach, debussy, Chopin, Scriabin, etc. as well as a real pianist. Still, I do want to learn (ie., commit to memory) a few pieces from the noteworthy composers.

 

[elabed haidar]

thanks thomas

 

[Pythagorean]

I've always felt like real pianos were sluggish to respond, and I had to strike the keys rather hard just to get medium volume out of it. Or worse, trying to play softly, but wind up having some keypresses not actually result in a sound. But, then again, I doubt I've ever played on a particularly good piano.

Of course, I felt the opposite of old electronic keyboards -- that they had a hair trigger and it was rather difficult to actually get soft sounds out of them.

I had a stand up piano in my house, but I preferred the grand piano at the community college a block away from my home (at the time).

What's nice about the "sluggishness" is it give you (me) finer control over the dB range so you can really make loud/soft the living part of your piece.

 

[ThomasT]

@Ken Natton, Ken please post those links to your soundclick stuff.