Curl in 2D is a vector or a scalar?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of the curl in two-dimensional vector fields, specifically whether it should be classified as a vector or a scalar. Participants explore theoretical implications, mathematical definitions, and the relationship between 2D and 3D curl concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the curl in 2D has only one scalar component, leading to the question of whether it is a vector or a scalar.
  • Others propose that the 2D curl can be viewed as a special case of the 3D curl, where it is directed along the k-axis, suggesting it is technically a vector but behaves like a scalar in practice.
  • Another viewpoint posits that the curl is neither a vector nor a scalar, but rather a bivector or two-form, emphasizing that it is an intrinsically two-dimensional object.
  • One participant questions the validity of equating a scalar and a vector in the context of line and surface integrals, suggesting that the definitions must be carefully considered.
  • There is a discussion about the practical implications of the modulus of the curl versus the curl itself, with some arguing that they are effectively the same in practice.
  • A later reply introduces the idea that the area element in 2D should also be treated as a bivector, advocating for a more elegant mathematical treatment that avoids arbitrary choices in orientation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the classification of the curl in 2D, with no consensus reached on whether it should be considered a vector, scalar, or bivector.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for careful definitions and the implications of dimensionality in mathematical expressions, particularly in the context of integrals involving curl.

Jhenrique
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Vector, by definition, have 2 or 3 scalar components (generally), but the curl of a vector field f(x,y) in 2D have only one scalar component: \left ( \frac{\partial f_y}{\partial x} -\frac{\partial f_x}{\partial y} \right )dxdy
So, the Curl of a vector field in 2D is a vector or a scalar?
 
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You can think of 2D curl as a special case of 3D where the only component is in the k direction.

In Green's theorem, for example, the normal to the area is also k, so the integral reduces to the scalar value.

I'd say that technically it's a vector, but it's always in the same direction, so it's never going to change direction like curl in 3D.
 
A curl is always the same type of beast in any number of dimensions. It's neither a vector nor a scalar; it's a bivector.

(Or a two-form; I'm not sure which. The point is that it's an intrinsically two-dimensional object.)

In 2D, the dual to a bivector is a scalar. In 3D, the dual to a bivector is a vector. Typically, students learn only about the vector, because bivectors are not typically taught.

So to answer your question: the curl in 2D is definitely not a vector. If you think of the 3D curl as a vector, you should think of the 2D curl as a scalar.
 
So is wrong to say that \oint_{s}\vec{f}\cdot d\vec{s} = \iint_{A}\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f} d^2A ? Because in the left side we have an scalar and in the right side we have a vector and a scalar is not equal to a vector... BUT, if I use the full definition, the equation will be: \oint_{s}\vec{f}\cdot d\vec{s} = \iint_{A}\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f} \cdot \hat{n} d^2A However, we can't define a normal vector to xy plane because is assumed that we are in the operating in 2D... So, is necessary use the modulus in the equation: \oint_{s}\vec{f}\cdot d\vec{s} = \iint_{A}|\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f}| d^2A But which is the difference between ##|\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f}|## and ##\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f}##, in the pratice, none...
 
Jhenrique said:
But which is the difference between ##|\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f}|## and ##\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f}##, in the pratice, none...

##|-1| \ne -1##.
 
d^2A should also be a bivector, and you should take the dot product between the two bivectors. This works equally well in 2D or 3D.

Notice how much more elegant this is: in particular, you never need to make a completely arbitrary choice between a "right hand rule" and a "left hand rule" (which would give you the same answer in the end).
 

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