A Dark Matter Real: Studies Confirm, Modifying Gravity Can't Work

  • #51
RUTA said:
If that were true, how would you explain the data fits?

I don't know; I haven't dug into the details of how you did the data fits, because I'm still trying to build a basic understanding of the theoretical claim you're making. It seems to me that if my theoretical understanding is wrong, it should be easy for you to correct it on theoretical grounds.
 
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  • #52
PeterDonis said:
I don't know; I haven't dug into the details of how you did the data fits, because I'm still trying to build a basic understanding of the theoretical claim you're making. It seems to me that if my theoretical understanding is wrong, it should be easy for you to correct it on theoretical grounds.

Read Sections 1 and 2 of the IJMPD paper (in my arXiv link) carefully, the answers to all your questions are there in conceptual detail. The answer to this specific question then starts after Eq (7) with “Suppose that the Schwarzschild vacuum surrounding the FLRW dust ball ... .”
 
  • #53
RUTA said:
The answer to this specific question then starts after Eq (7) with “Suppose that the Schwarzschild vacuum surrounding the FLRW dust ball ... .”

But, as I've already pointed out, galaxies are not modeled by FLRW spacetimes, because they're not expanding or contracting, they're stationary. An idealized model for a galaxy, if you want to keep the spherical symmetry and the "dust" aspect (zero pressure, which seems reasonable for a galaxy since the individual stars have no appreciable interaction other than gravity), would be a rotating dust. I don't know of any exact solution of this type (the van Stockum dust has density increasing from the rotation axis, which is the opposite of what happens in a galaxy), but I would expect that one could be approximated numerically.

Leaving that aside, your model, schematically, is "galaxy surrounded by Schwarzschild vacuum region surrounded by expanding FLRW dust region", and we on Earth are supposed to be in the expanding FLRW dust region. But we are talking about distance scales (roughly 20 Mpc) which are well below the scale at which the universe is well modeled by FLRW dust. It seems to me that a realistic model for observing a galaxy at that distance would have us on Earth in the Schwarzschild vacuum region (essentially "at infinity").

But even leaving that aside, I don't understand the following claim in your paper (from p. 5, the paragraph starting with the sentence you quoted): "observers in the surrounding FLRW dust (global context) will obtain the “globally determined” proper mass ##M_p## for the collapsed dust ball while observers in the Schwarzschild vacuum (local context) will obtain the “locally determined” dynamic mass ##M## for the collapsed dust ball".

Observers in the Schwarzschild region will measure the mass ##M## that appears in the metric for that region (which is the same everywhere in the region), and they will of course interpret this physically as the mass of the galaxy that is surrounded by the Schwarzschild region. Earlier in the paper (Eq. 1 and the surrounding discussion) you showed that (for the non-flat cases) the Schwarzschild mass ##M## is not the same as the proper mass ##M_p## of the FLRW region, which here is the FLRW region inside the Schwarzschild region, i.e., the FLRW region that describes the galaxy. But now you're claiming that, somehow, observers in the FLRW region outside the Schwarzschild region will measure ##M_p## instead of ##M##? That doesn't make sense. Observers in the outside FLRW region will observe the entire region to the interior of theirs (Schwarzschild plus interior FLRW) as having mass ##M## (the Schwarzschild geometry mass). What else could they possibly observe?
 
  • #54
RUTA said:
It does not equal the mass in the Schwarzschild metric unless the FLRW spatial geometry is flat.

Just to make sure I understand how this conclusion is derived for the closed case (since that appears to be the case of interest for this particular discussion), from my understanding of the Oppenheimer-Snyder model of stellar collapse, the following would seem to be true:

(1) At the instant when the collapse starts, we have a spherically symmetric region containing matter with a boundary at some areal radius ##R_0##, surrounded by Schwarzschild vacuum. At this instant, all of the matter in the matter region is at rest. The geometry of the matter region is a portion of a closed FLRW geometry at the instant of maximum expansion.

(2) At the above instant, the Schwarzschild region has a mass ##M## (a property of its geometry), and the proper mass of the matter region, obtained by integrating its (constant) density over its volume, is ##M_p > M##. The reason ##M_p## is greater than ##M## is that space inside the matter region is not Euclidean; its proper volume is greater than ##4 \pi R_0^3 / 3##, so we have ##M_p > 4 \pi \rho R_0^3 / 3##. But the Schwarzschild mass ##M## is obtained from the integral ##\int_0^{R_0} 4 \pi \rho r^2 dr##, which obviously gives ##M = 4 \pi \rho R_0^3 / 3##, hence ##M_p > M##.

(3) Both ##M_p## and ##M## are constant in time, so their values at the instant the collapse starts will remain their values throughout the collapse.
 
  • #55
PeterDonis said:
from my understanding of the Oppenheimer-Snyder model of stellar collapse, the following would seem to be true

Assuming that what I wrote there is correct, the next obvious question is, which mass determines the rotation curve of the "galaxy" that occupies the matter region--##M## or ##M_p##?

Here is a simple argument for why it must be ##M##. Suppose I have an object in a circular free-fall orbit in the Schwarzschild region just outside ##R_0##. The orbital parameters are determined by ##M##. Now suppose I move the object into the matter region just inside ##R_0##. There should be no significant difference in all of those parameters, because the metric has to be the same on both "sides" of the boundary (more precisely, the limits as you approach the boundary from each side must be equal). But that means the circular free-fall orbit just inside ##R_0## must be essentially the same as the circular free-fall orbit just outside--which in turn means the rotation curve (which is just the velocity of a free-fall orbit) in the matter region must be determined by ##M##, since if it were determined by ##M_p## there would be a discontinuous jump at the boundary.

Am I missing something?
 
  • #56
PeterDonis said:
Assuming that what I wrote there is correct, the next obvious question is, which mass determines the rotation curve of the "galaxy" that occupies the matter region--##M## or ##M_p##?

Here is a simple argument for why it must be ##M##. Suppose I have an object in a circular free-fall orbit in the Schwarzschild region just outside ##R_0##. The orbital parameters are determined by ##M##. Now suppose I move the object into the matter region just inside ##R_0##. There should be no significant difference in all of those parameters, because the metric has to be the same on both "sides" of the boundary (more precisely, the limits as you approach the boundary from each side must be equal). But that means the circular free-fall orbit just inside ##R_0## must be essentially the same as the circular free-fall orbit just outside--which in turn means the rotation curve (which is just the velocity of a free-fall orbit) in the matter region must be determined by ##M##, since if it were determined by ##M_p## there would be a discontinuous jump at the boundary.

Am I missing something?

First, we are supposing there are two different techniques for measuring the mass of the matter responsible for the geometry in the two different solutions (regions of spacetime), which is the case in astrophysics. If this wasn't the case, there would not be different values of mass to begin with, i.e., no missing mass problem. For example, we measure the radiation emitted by the galactic gas and we must infer a mass based on that data. How do we do that? From the physics we know about that type of gas as measured in the our labs. The same is true for stars using the HR diagram. Our claim is that the physics is only in apparent discord because we're assuming that the mass of the matter determined in one context is the same as its mass in any and all contexts. We know this is false already, e.g., neutron mass in the nucleus versus the neutron mass out of the nucleus. Likewise with electrons in solid state physics calculations. Here again is the beginning of that paragraph:

Suppose that the Schwarzschild vacuum surrounding the FLRW dust ball in our example above is itself surrounded by the remaining FLRW dust, i.e., the ball of FLRW dust has collapsed out of its FLRW cosmological context and is now separated from that cosmological context by the Schwarzschild vacuum. The spacetime geometry of the surrounding FLRW dust will be unaffected by the intervening Schwarzschild vacuum, so observers in the surrounding FLRW dust (global context) will obtain the “globally determined” proper mass Mp for the collapsed dust ball while observers in the Schwarzschild vacuum (local context) will obtain the “locally determined” dynamic mass M for the collapsed dust ball. Thus, stellar mass-to-luminosity ratios would be based on M and would not give the proper mass Mp required to explain galactic RC’s.

As we point out earlier, binding energy is not a big enough effect to account for the missing mass, but what about the disparity between mass in adjoined GR solutions? That brings me to my second point, i.e., our example is heuristic and we use it only to show that adjoined/complex/realistic GR solutions can indeed harbor large enough mass discrepancies to account for the missing mass. As we write at the end of that paragraph:

Of course, this is an idealization and the actual situation in a galaxy would be far more complicated since such a nested solution would have to marry up with other such nested solutions. Indeed, the surrounding FLRW dust may not even remain, having coalesced into other bodies and clouds. And, as we will see, the largest contribution to the correction of galactic dynamic mass is not from the stellar disk or bulge, but the gas. Again, given the complexity of GR, no such exact solution can be expected, so some approximation method for obtaining the proper mass from the dynamic mass must be motivated and checked for efficacy against astrophysical data.

We did that work two years ago and I had intended to develop the idea last summer, but Bub gave me a more interesting problem to work on instead. I solved his problem, wrote two papers, and now I'm busy trying to sell that (attending conferences and making videos). Someday I hope to finish this missing mass idea :-)
 
  • #57
RUTA said:
we are supposing there are two different techniques for measuring the mass of the matter responsible for the geometry in the two different solutions (regions of spacetime), which is the case in astrophysics.

Why would an observer in the external FLRW region be able to use these techniques while an observer in the Schwarzschild region can't?

RUTA said:
The same is true for stars using the HR diagram.

Let's take this as an example. The HR diagram let's us infer absolute luminosity from the spectrum, and then we infer mass from absolute luminosity using a known mass-luminosity relationship for the type of star. And you are saying this mass would be the "proper mass" of the star, i.e., the mass that would be observed by an observer in the same local region as the star (like us measuring the mass of our own Sun based on our observations of the orbital parameters of the planets).

So now we total up the proper masses of all the stars in the galaxy using this method, giving a result ##M_p##. And you are saying this will be larger than the "dynamic mass" ##M## due to those stars, which could be measured, for example, by putting a test object in orbit around the entire galaxy and measuring its orbital parameters.

Do I have this correct? If so, it just leads me right back to a previous issue I raised: the "missing mass" problem is that the mass that we infer from rotation curves is larger than the mass ##M_p## we obtain by observing the luminous matter in the galaxy and inferring its mass by methods such as the HR diagram and mass-luminosity relationship. But by your arguments, the "dynamic mass" ##M## is smaller than the mass ##M_p##. There is no "alternative mass" you have given that is larger than the mass ##M_p##, and larger is what would be needed to remove the missing mass problem. So, again, it seems like any corrections available for the reasons you give would be in the wrong direction: they would make the problem worse, not better.

RUTA said:
Our claim is that the physics is only in apparent discord because we're assuming that the mass of the matter determined in one context is the same as its mass in any and all contexts. We know this is false already, e.g., neutron mass in the nucleus versus the neutron mass out of the nucleus.

And all of these examples have a simple explanation: binding energy. But you say binding energy can't fix the problem:

RUTA said:
As we point out earlier, binding energy is not a big enough effect to account for the missing mass

And not only that, but binding energy gives a "correction" in the wrong direction, as noted above: it makes the dynamic mass ##M## smaller than the proper mass ##M_p##. But fixing the missing mass problem requires a correction that makes the mass larger, not smaller.

RUTA said:
what about the disparity between mass in adjoined GR solutions?

The only example you give is the one that models a galaxy using an FLRW spacetime, which I don't think is a good model for the reasons I've already given. But once more, the correction you obtain even from this model is in the wrong direction, as noted above.
 
  • #58
PeterDonis said:
Why would an observer in the external FLRW region be able to use these techniques while an observer in the Schwarzschild region can't?

The observers in the FLRW region have an entirely different spacetime geometry as a result of the entirely different mass for one and the same matter.

PeterDonis said:
Let's take this as an example. The HR diagram let's us infer absolute luminosity from the spectrum, and then we infer mass from absolute luminosity using a known mass-luminosity relationship for the type of star. And you are saying this mass would be the "proper mass" of the star, i.e., the mass that would be observed by an observer in the same local region as the star (like us measuring the mass of our own Sun based on our observations of the orbital parameters of the planets).

Other way around, this is the dynamic mass M, so everything you say afterwards is a non-sequitur.

PeterDonis said:
And all of these examples have a simple explanation: binding energy. But you say binding energy can't fix the problem

Right, it's too small of an effect.

PeterDonis said:
And not only that, but binding energy gives a "correction" in the wrong direction, as noted above: it makes the dynamic mass ##M## smaller than the proper mass ##M_p##. But fixing the missing mass problem requires a correction that makes the mass larger, not smaller.

The condensed (bound) mass (dynamic mass) is smaller than the free mass (proper mass) for the neutron example. Did you read footnote 1?

1. Typically, “dynamical mass” and “luminous mass” are the terms used with dynamical mass larger than luminous mass. Our terminology is following the GR convention.

PeterDonis said:
The only example you give is the one that models a galaxy using an FLRW spacetime, which I don't think is a good model for the reasons I've already given. But once more, the correction you obtain even from this model is in the wrong direction, as noted above.

I think I see why you're getting this backwards. Here is a quote from p. 24:

The average ratio of total proper mass to total dynamic mass in the THINGS data was 4.19 ± 0.81. This is consistent with a dark matter fraction of 79% in galaxies found using microlensing ([83] and references therein).

Read the two excerpts from post #56 again carefully. Maybe you didn't read footnote 1 and notice the use of scare quotes around "proper mass" and "dynamic mass1" there:

... the “proper mass” Mp of the matter, as measured locally in the matter, can be different than the “dynamic mass1” M in the Schwarzschild metric ...

The terminology can be tricky because the dynamic mass of the Schwarzschild metric is larger than the proper (bound) mass in that usage (per Wald). But, it's the other way around for the FLRW dust surrounding the Schwarzschild vacuum. The problem is "proper mass" in GR means "as measured in the local frame of reference." You can see why that's going to be confusing with my use of "locally measured" for "dynamic mass." The proper mass of the FLRW dust surrounding the Schwarzschild vacuum is measured in the local frame of reference for the FLRW observers, but I'm calling it the "globally determined proper mass" in the astrophysical contexts. I've tried writing it both ways and either way always ends up confusing someone.
 
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  • #59
RUTA said:
The condensed (bound) mass (dynamic mass) is smaller than the free mass (proper mass) for the neutron example.

Yes, I understand that.

RUTA said:
"proper mass" in GR means "as measured in the local frame of reference."

Yes, and I gave an example of that: the "proper mass" for a star that is inferred from its spectral class and luminosity is the same as the mass that an observer in the same solar system as that star would measure from orbital parameters. But if we add up all the "proper masses" for the stars in a galaxy, we get a total that is larger than the "dynamic mass" for the galaxy as a whole, that would be measured by putting an object in orbit about the entire galaxy and measuring its orbital parameters.

RUTA said:
The terminology can be tricky

I'm not drawing inferences from your terminology. I'm drawing inferences from the physics of the examples you use. I would be just as happy to not use your terminology at all, since, as you admit, no matter how you use it it's going to confuse somebody.

RUTA said:
The proper mass of the FLRW dust surrounding the Schwarzschild vacuum is measured in the local frame of reference for the FLRW observers

Of the FLRW dust surrounding the Schwarzschild vacuum, yes. But that's not the proper mass of the galaxy; the galaxy is inside the Schwarzschild vacuum, not outside it. There is no way observers in the FLRW region outside the Schwarzschild vacuum region can be in the "local frame of reference" of a galaxy that is inside the Schwarzschild vacuum region.
 
  • #60
RUTA said:
The terminology can be tricky because the dynamic mass of the Schwarzschild metric is larger than the proper (bound) mass in that usage (per Wald).

I think this is backwards. You are defining the dynamic mass ##M## as the mass that appears in the Schwarzschild metric, and the proper mass ##M_p## as the mass you get when you measure locally in the matter. But this means ##M_p > M##; the difference ##M_p - M## is the binding energy of the system.

What particular Chapter/section of Wald are you referring to?

Note, btw, that a similar argument applies for the case I analyzed in post #54: a contracting FLRW matter region surrounded by Schwarzschild vacuum. I showed why ##M_p > M## for this case (this analysis, as far as I know, agrees with Eq. 1 in your arxiv paper). But the matter region in this case is also a bound system: the matter in this region does not have enough energy to escape to infinity. And the difference ##M_p - M## has a straightforward physical interpretation as the binding energy: the energy that would need to be added to the matter region to allow the matter to just escape to infinity. So in this respect, I don't see any difference between the "FLRW inside Schwarzschild vacuum" case and the "stationary matter region inside Schwarzschild vacuum" case.
 
  • #61
PeterDonis said:
Yes, and I gave an example of that: the "proper mass" for a star that is inferred from its spectral class and luminosity is the same as the mass that an observer in the same solar system as that star would measure from orbital parameters. But if we add up all the "proper masses" for the stars in a galaxy, we get a total that is larger than the "dynamic mass" for the galaxy as a whole, that would be measured by putting an object in orbit about the entire galaxy and measuring its orbital parameters.

No, it's just the opposite. As a star orbits the galactic center (call it Star A), the mass inside its galactic orbit needed for the star to maintain that orbit is the proper mass (globally determined mass). If you determine the mass of a star from objects in orbit around it or mass of a gas from laboratory experiments, that is dynamic mass (locally determined mass). When you add up the locally determined dynamic mass of the stars and gas inside the orbital radius of Star A, it is less than the proper mass. That is why some people believe there is non-baryonic dark matter in galaxies (and clusters and ... ).

PeterDonis said:
Of the FLRW dust surrounding the Schwarzschild vacuum, yes. But that's not the proper mass of the galaxy; the galaxy is inside the Schwarzschild vacuum, not outside it. There is no way observers in the FLRW region outside the Schwarzschild vacuum region can be in the "local frame of reference" of a galaxy that is inside the Schwarzschild vacuum region.

Keep in mind the FLRW-Schwarzschild adjoined spacetime is only an analogy. In that analogy, the orbit of Star A is determined by the larger proper mass inside its galactic orbit, just as the geometry of the FLRW solution outside the Schwarzschild vacuum annulus is determined by the proper mass of the FLRW dust ball inside the Schwarzschild annulus. The dynamic mass of the FLRW dust ball per the Schwarzschild geometry is analogous to the locally determined dynamic mass of all the gas and stars inside the orbital radius of Star A.
 
  • #62
RUTA said:
As a star orbits the galactic center (call it Star A), the mass inside its galactic orbit needed for the star to maintain that orbit is the proper mass (globally determined mass). If you determine the mass of a star from objects in orbit around it or mass of a gas from laboratory experiments, that is dynamic mass (locally determined mass)

Ok, at this point I simply refuse to use your terminology since it is only obfuscating the physics.

When you say "the mass inside its galactic orbit needed for the star to maintain that orbit", I assume you mean the mass that is needed to account for the rotation curve, correct? And that mass is obtained by using a Newtonian formula. I'm going to call this mass ##M_{RC}## ("RC" for "rotation curve").

We can't observe objects in orbit around individual stars in other galaxies, so any definition of "mass" that uses this is irrelevant to this discussion.

We can infer a mass from observations of a galaxy's spectrum and luminosity by using the H-R diagram and mass-luminosity relations for various types of stars, and properties of radiation from gas. I'm going to call this mass ##M_{L}## ("L" for "luminosity").

The "missing mass" problem is that, for most galaxies, ##M_{RC} > M_L##, and usually by a fairly large margin.

One obvious correction that could be made is to use GR instead of Newtonian gravity. As I understand it, this would somewhat reduce ##M_{RC}##, since in GR the orbital velocity due to a given mass is somewhat higher than in Newtonian gravity (how much higher depends on how compact the mass is and how close the orbit is to the center). I don't know if this is what you are getting at with the "binding energy" correction.

I still am unable to understand what other correction you are proposing, or why it should be there. Can you explain that without using any of your obfuscating terminology, and using the definitions for ##M_{RC}## and ##M_L## that I gave above?
 
  • #63
RUTA said:
the geometry of the FLRW solution outside the Schwarzschild vacuum annulus is determined by the proper mass of the FLRW dust ball inside the Schwarzschild annulus.

Um, what? How does this work? These two regions are disconnected, and if any mass were going to affect the FLRW dust ball outside the Schwarzschild vacuum region, it would be the Schwarzschild mass ##M## of that region.
 
  • #64
Ken G said:
Or, we could adopt a MOND that has an external field effect, and say the external field effect lowers the Newtonian-equivalent M (i.e., not the actual M, the M inferred from Newtonian gravity). But for that to be satisfactory to me, that external field effect must not mess up other things, in particular cosmology (as there the external fields pervasive over the history of the universe have spanned a very wide scale of strengths and should give a clear signal of any such MOND effect).

So yes, taken in a vacuum, DF2 might actually challenge dark matter theories more than it challenges some particular MOND theories that include an external field effect. But the real issue is, what happens when we take everything else we've seen, including cosmology, and then add DF2 into the mix, and ask, what theories still survive with only small modifications? If we think it's dark matter, our challenge is to answer, why is the baryonic M/L the same in DF2 as in the Milky Way? If we think it's MOND, our challenge is to answer, what would the external field effect that we need for DF2 do to the history of the expansion of the universe?

It is worth recalling that the external field effect means that in that field, you have Newtonian gravity (or more precisely, no MOND effects). The question at the cosmology level (which really hasn't been worked out yet, mostly for lack of attention), is how modified gravity fills the role that dark matter did in cosmology. In so far as the external field effect matters it is in how can there be places not subject to the external field effect in the early universe, so that modified gravity can substitute for dark matter, not what effect the external field effect has itself.
 
  • #65
PeterDonis said:
Um, what? How does this work? These two regions are disconnected, and if any mass were going to affect the FLRW dust ball outside the Schwarzschild vacuum region, it would be the Schwarzschild mass ##M## of that region.

Yes, the FLRW solution behaves as if the rest of the FLRW solution is connected directly to it. You can see this from the calculation in the AJP paper. Also, you can imagine expanding the FLRW ball of dust (the proper mass remains constant) so that the Schwarzschild vacuum annulus shrinks to zero. Does this change the geometry of the exterior FLRW solution? No.
 
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  • #66
PeterDonis said:
When you say "the mass inside its galactic orbit needed for the star to maintain that orbit", I assume you mean the mass that is needed to account for the rotation curve, correct? And that mass is obtained by using a Newtonian formula. I'm going to call this mass ##M_{RC}## ("RC" for "rotation curve").

Sounds good.

PeterDonis said:
We can't observe objects in orbit around individual stars in other galaxies, so any definition of "mass" that uses this is irrelevant to this discussion.

We can infer a mass from observations of a galaxy's spectrum and luminosity by using the H-R diagram and mass-luminosity relations for various types of stars, and properties of radiation from gas. I'm going to call this mass ##M_{L}## ("L" for "luminosity").

Any means used to obtain the mass of stars for the H-R diagram (to include orbital kinematics) is local (within our galaxy). We then simply infer it is the same for the same types of stars in other galaxies (actually, there's just one M/L for all stars in the THINGS data). I never said we used this method directly for stars in other galaxies. I'll keep your terminology.

PeterDonis said:
The "missing mass" problem is that, for most galaxies, ##M_{RC} > M_L##, and usually by a fairly large margin.

For the THINGS galactic rotation data the ratio is 4.19 +/- 0.81.

PeterDonis said:
One obvious correction that could be made is to use GR instead of Newtonian gravity. As I understand it, this would somewhat reduce ##M_{RC}##, since in GR the orbital velocity due to a given mass is somewhat higher than in Newtonian gravity (how much higher depends on how compact the mass is and how close the orbit is to the center). I don't know if this is what you are getting at with the "binding energy" correction.

No, the binding energy example is shown just to make the point that mass is contextual.

PeterDonis said:
I still am unable to understand what other correction you are proposing, or why it should be there. Can you explain that without using any of your obfuscating terminology, and using the definitions for ##M_{RC}## and ##M_L## that I gave above?

It's very simple. The mass of the matter interior to Star A's orbit determined by "the H-R diagram and mass-luminosity relations for various types of stars, and properties of radiation from gas" (what you're calling ##M_L##) does not equal the mass of that matter per Star A's orbit (what you're calling ##M_{RC}##). We are proposing that the difference exists because we should be modeling the galaxy by a compound GR solution. In compound GR solutions, the mass of the matter can have significantly different values (as we showed in the FLRW-Schwarzschild example). How do you use this fact to get from ##M_L## to ##M_{RC}##? There's no way to know unless you could actually produce a multiply compound GR solution that accurately models the complexity of the galactic matter distribution. That isn't going to happen. So, we argued for and tested some ansatzes. The results are displayed against several alternatives (MOND, STVG, MSTG, NFW, Burkett, and ##\Lambda##CDM) and discussed in the paper.
 
  • #67
RUTA said:
the FLRW solution behaves as if the rest of the FLRW solution is connected directly to it.

This can't be right, because the two FLRW solutions have different geometries. The inner one is a portion of a collapsing closed FLRW geometry. The outer one is an expanding FLRW geometry with a spherically symmetric region removed. In our actual universe, the expanding FLRW geometry is spatially flat, so even leaving out the difference between expanding and collapsing, its spatial slices are Euclidean, whereas the spatial slices of the inner FLRW geometry are not. But even if we look at the case where the outer expanding FLRW geometry is closed, it has a much, much larger radius of curvature than the inner collapsing FLRW geometry, so its spatial geometry is still not the same.

RUTA said:
You can see this from the calculation in the AJP paper.

Which particular equations in the AJP paper do you think support your claim?
 
  • #68
PeterDonis said:
This can't be right, because the two FLRW solutions have different geometries. The inner one is a portion of a collapsing closed FLRW geometry. The outer one is an expanding FLRW geometry with a spherically symmetric region removed. In our actual universe, the expanding FLRW geometry is spatially flat, so even leaving out the difference between expanding and collapsing, its spatial slices are Euclidean, whereas the spatial slices of the inner FLRW geometry are not. But even if we look at the case where the outer expanding FLRW geometry is closed, it has a much, much larger radius of curvature than the inner collapsing FLRW geometry, so its spatial geometry is still not the same.

Which particular equations in the AJP paper do you think support your claim?

The AJP paper shows that the Schwarzschild vacuum can surround the FLRW ball or be surrounded by the FLRW solution. And, the FLRW solution is time symmetric (expanding free fall or collapsing free fall are both solutions), so just put the Schwarzschild solution between the two versions of the FLRW solution and marry them up at the two boundaries as shown in the AJP paper.
 
  • #69
RUTA said:
Any means used to obtain the mass of stars for the H-R diagram (to include orbital kinematics) is local (within our galaxy). We then simply infer it is the same for the same types of stars in other galaxies (actually, there's just one M/L for all stars in the THINGS data).

Yes, agreed.

RUTA said:
I never said we used this method directly for stars in other galaxies.

I never said we did either. As you say, we can't; we can only infer that the relationships we can directly measure for stars in our galaxy also hold for similar stars in other galaxies. That's what I was assuming we did in order to obtain ##M_L##.

RUTA said:
We are proposing that the difference exists because we should be modeling the galaxy by a compound GR solution. In compound GR solutions, the mass of the matter can have significantly different values

Sorry, I'm refusing to use your terminology, so just saying "the mass of the matter can have significantly different values" means nothing. You need to specify how "the mass of the matter" is being measured. I specified two ways. So you need to explain to me how your "compound GR solution" gives rise to a correction to one (or both) of those ways that makes the two values, ##M_{RC}## and ##M_L##, come out the same.

RUTA said:
How do you use this fact to get from MLM_L to MRCM_{RC}? There's no way to know unless you could actually produce a multiply compound GR solution that accurately models the complexity of the galactic matter distribution. That isn't going to happen. So, we argued for and tested some ansatzes.

And I'm asking you to explain, for any or all of those ansatzes, how the ansatz gives rise to a correction to either ##M_{RC}## (the mass we infer from the rotation curve) or ##M_L## (the mass we infer from luminosity data), or both, that could make them come out the same, without using your terminology. How should the process of obtaining ##M_{RC}## from the observed rotation curve (which we assume is fixed by observation), or the process of obtaining ##M_L## from the observed luminosity data (which we assume is fixed by observation), or both, be changed? I understand that you don't have an exact solution or a numerical model that accurately captures an actual galaxy; but I'm not asking the above question with regard to an exact solution for an actual galaxy. I'm asking it for any one, or all, of your ansatzes, and you should be able to answer the question for those since you picked them precisely in order to illustrate how such corrections could arise.
 
  • #70
RUTA said:
The AJP paper shows that the Schwarzschild vacuum can surround the FLRW ball or be surrounded by the FLRW solution. And, the FLRW solution is time symmetric (expanding free fall or collapsing free fall are both solutions), so just put the Schwarzschild solution between the two versions of the FLRW solution and marry them up at the two boundaries as shown in the AJP paper.

This doesn't prove your claim, because the two FLRW geometries are different, as I've already pointed out. Saying "the FLRW solution is time symmetric" doesn't change that, because we're not talking about a single FLRW solution and its time reverse, we're talking about two different FLRW solutions, with different spatial geometries, so they aren't time reverses of each other.
 
  • #71
PeterDonis said:
And I'm asking you to explain, for any or all of those ansatzes, how the ansatz gives rise to a correction to either ##M_{RC}## (the mass we infer from the rotation curve) or ##M_L## (the mass we infer from luminosity data), or both, that could make them come out the same, without using your terminology. How should the process of obtaining ##M_{RC}## from the observed rotation curve (which we assume is fixed by observation), or the process of obtaining ##M_L## from the observed luminosity data (which we assume is fixed by observation), or both, be changed? I understand that you don't have an exact solution or a numerical model that accurately captures an actual galaxy; but I'm not asking the above question with regard to an exact solution for an actual galaxy. I'm asking it for any one, or all, of your ansatzes, and you should be able to answer the question for those since you picked them precisely in order to illustrate how such corrections could arise.

Equations 12, 13 and 14 with ##dM_p \rightarrow dM_{RC}## and ##dM \rightarrow dM_L##. Arguments for all three are presented in the surrounding paragraphs.
 
  • #72
PeterDonis said:
This doesn't prove your claim, because the two FLRW geometries are different, as I've already pointed out. Saying "the FLRW solution is time symmetric" doesn't change that, because we're not talking about a single FLRW solution and its time reverse, we're talking about two different FLRW solutions, with different spatial geometries, so they aren't time reverses of each other.

What stops you from doing this? You agree that you can attach either an expanding or collapsing dust to the interior or exterior of the Schwarzschild vacuum right? Just do both.
 
  • #73
RUTA said:
What stops you from doing this?

I'm not saying you can't have a model with an inner collapsing FLRW region and an outer expanding FLRW region separated by a Schwarzschild vacuum region. Of course you can.

What I'm saying is that the two FLRW regions are not time reverses of each other. More precisely, while you can construct a solution where the two regions are time reverses of each other, such a solution is highly fine-tuned. If we extend the solution into the past, we reach a spacelike surface where the Schwarzschild region vanishes and the two FLRW regions meet. If the two FLRW regions are to be time reverses of each other, at the meeting, the two FLRW regions must have exactly the same density, which means that the time from the initial singularity of the expanding FLRW region to the meeting point, for an expanding comoving observer, must be equal to the time from the meeting point to the final singularity of the collapsing FLRW region, for a collapsing FLRW observer. Put more colloquially, if the meeting point happens a billion years after the Big Bang of the expanding region, the collapsing region would have to take a billion years to collapse; while if the meeting point happens two billion years after the Big Bang, the collapsing region would have to take two billion years to collapse. Any solution that does not satisfy this constraint will not satisfy your claim that the two FLRW regions "behave the same" either--the ##M_p## of the collapsing region will not be the same as the ##M_p## of the "piece" of the expanding region that was removed to make room for the collapsing region (plus the Schwarzschild vacuum separating them). And the solutions that satisfy the constraint are a set of measure zero in the space of all solutions with the same basic structure, which is why I say solutions satisfying the constraint are highly fine-tuned.
 
  • #74
RUTA said:
Equations 12, 13 and 14 with ##dM_p \rightarrow dM_{RC}## and ##dM \rightarrow dM_L##.

Is this referring to the AJP paper or the arxiv paper?
 
  • #75
PeterDonis said:
I'm not saying you can't have a model with an inner collapsing FLRW region and an outer expanding FLRW region separated by a Schwarzschild vacuum region. Of course you can.

What I'm saying is that the two FLRW regions are not time reverses of each other. More precisely, while you can construct a solution where the two regions are time reverses of each other, such a solution is highly fine-tuned. If we extend the solution into the past, we reach a spacelike surface where the Schwarzschild region vanishes and the two FLRW regions meet. If the two FLRW regions are to be time reverses of each other, at the meeting, the two FLRW regions must have exactly the same density, which means that the time from the initial singularity of the expanding FLRW region to the meeting point, for an expanding comoving observer, must be equal to the time from the meeting point to the final singularity of the collapsing FLRW region, for a collapsing FLRW observer. Put more colloquially, if the meeting point happens a billion years after the Big Bang of the expanding region, the collapsing region would have to take a billion years to collapse; while if the meeting point happens two billion years after the Big Bang, the collapsing region would have to take two billion years to collapse. Any solution that does not satisfy this constraint will not satisfy your claim that the two FLRW regions "behave the same" either--the ##M_p## of the collapsing region will not be the same as the ##M_p## of the "piece" of the expanding region that was removed to make room for the collapsing region (plus the Schwarzschild vacuum separating them). And the solutions that satisfy the constraint are a set of measure zero in the space of all solutions with the same basic structure, which is why I say solutions satisfying the constraint are highly fine-tuned.

Of course, the interior solution has to match the exterior solution or you can't get M for the metric of the vacuum annulus to match both. I don't know why you keep trying to use this heuristic example to model galactic matter distributions. That's not reasonable as we state explicitly in the paper. The REAL compound GR solution would be impossibly complex. Thus, the ansatzes and discussion pertaining thereto.
 
  • #76
PeterDonis said:
Is this referring to the AJP paper or the arxiv paper?

ArXiv paper
 
  • #77
RUTA said:
Of course, the interior solution has to match the exterior solution or you can't get M for the metric of the vacuum annulus to match both.

The ##M## for the Schwarzschild vacuum region doesn't have to match both. It doesn't have to have any relationship at all to the ##M## for the exterior FLRW region. (In fact, if the exterior FLRW region is spatially infinite, as it is in our best current model of our actual universe, its ##M## is infinite, so it obviously can't be the same as the finite ##M## of the Schwarzschild vacuum region surrounding an isolated system like a galaxy.)

RUTA said:
I don't know why you keep trying to use this heuristic example to model galactic matter distributions. That's not reasonable as we state explicitly in the paper.

Then you shouldn't be basing any arguments on it. But you are. If you agree to retract all those arguments, I'll gladly drop this line of discussion. But then you would have to retract a substantial portion of your papers. The only reason I'm discussing this type of model at all is that you did.
 
  • #78
RUTA said:
ArXiv paper

Ok. Then I'm afraid I don't find equations 12, 13, and 14 and the discussion surrounding them at all convincing. I just see curve fitting and handwaving.

Perhaps I'd better explain in more detail what I'm looking for by considering another idealized example: a static, spherically symmetric matter region of constant density surrounded by Schwarzschild vacuum. Of course this example is highly unrealistic because of the constant density assumption, but it's a common one used for pedagogy in textbooks because it has a known exact solution. The metric for this solution in Schwarzschild coordinates is

$$
ds^2 = - J(r) dt^2 + \frac{1}{1 - \frac{2m(r)}{r}} dr^2 + r^2 d\Omega^2
$$

where ##d\Omega^2## is the standard metric on a 2-sphere. There are two regions, the matter region and the vacuum region, with a boundary between them at ##r = R_0##. In the vacuum region, we have ##m(r) = M## and ##J(r) = 1 - \frac{2M}{r}##. In the matter region, we have

$$
m(r) = 4 \pi \rho \int_0^r r^2 dr = \frac{4}{3} \pi \rho r^3
$$

and

$$
J(r) = \left( \frac{3}{2} \sqrt{1 - \frac{2M}{R_0}} - \frac{1}{2} \sqrt{1 - \frac{2M r^2}{R_0^3}} \right)^2
$$

Note that the above equation for ##m(r)##, when we plug in ##r = R_0##, gives

$$
M = \frac{4}{3} \pi \rho R_0^3
$$

We can compute the orbital frequency ##\omega## of a free-fall circular orbit at radius ##r## using the methods in my Insights article on Fermi-Walker transport [1], which gives a simple way to compute the proper acceleration as a function of ##\omega## (and we can then set the proper acceleration to zero to find the free-fall orbit value of ##\omega##):

$$
A = \frac{1}{2} g^{rr} \left[ \left( \partial_r g_{tt} \right) u^t u^t + \left( \partial_r g_{\phi \phi} \right) u^\phi u^\phi \right] = \frac{1}{2} \left( 1 - \frac{2m(r)}{r} \right) \left( \frac{1}{J(r) - \omega^2 r^2} \partial_r J(r) + \frac{\omega^2}{J(r) - \omega^2 r^2} 2 r \right)
$$

The condition for ##A = 0## is then

$$
\partial_r J(r) = 2 \omega^2 r
$$

which gives

$$
\omega = \sqrt{\frac{1}{2r} \partial_r J(r)}
$$

For the Schwarzschild vacuum region, we have ##\partial_r J(r) = \frac{2 M}{r^2}##, so we get the familiar formula:

$$
\omega = \sqrt{\frac{M}{r^3}}
$$

For the interior matter region, we have

$$
\partial_r J(r) = 2 \left( \frac{3}{2} \sqrt{1 - \frac{2M}{R_0}} - \frac{1}{2} \sqrt{1 - \frac{2M r^2}{R_0^3}} \right) \frac{1}{4} \left( 1 - \frac{2Mr^2}{R_0^3} \right)^{-\frac{1}{2}} \frac{4Mr}{R_0^3}
$$

which gives

$$
\omega = \sqrt{ \left( \frac{3}{2} \sqrt{\frac{R_0^3 - 2M R_0^2}{R_0^3 - 2M r^2}} - \frac{1}{2} \right) \frac{M}{R_0^3} }
$$

Inverting this formula gives us a way to infer ##M## from observations of ##\omega## as a function of ##r## for objects in free-fall orbits in the interior matter region; in other words, it gives us a way to infer ##M_{RC}## from an observed rotation curve. And we will find that ##M_{RC}## inferred in this way is given by the formula for ##M## above, i.e.,

$$
M_{RC} = \frac{4}{3} \pi \rho R_0^3
$$

Now, suppose all the matter in the interior matter region is luminous, and obeys some known mass-luminosity relation. Then we can infer a mass ##M_L## from the observed luminosity. Since the mass-luminosity relation will be derived, as you note, from observations of stars in our own galaxy, we expect that ##M_L## for the interior matter region will be something like "integrate the density over the proper volume". But we know what that integral is:

$$
M_L = 4 \pi \rho \int_0^{R_0} r^2 \sqrt{g_{rr}} dr
$$

where the extra factor of ##\sqrt{g_{rr}}## is the correction to make the integral over the proper volume. We don't even need to evaluate this to see that, since ##g_{rr} > 1## for the entire range of integration, we must end up with ##M_L > M_{RC}##.

As I said, this model is obviously unrealistic; but just on heuristic grounds, I would expect a similar relationship ##M_L > M_{RC}## to hold for any stationary bound system (and a galaxy is such a system, certainly to a good enough approximation for our purposes here) in which all of the matter is luminous, for the simple reason that I've already given in a prior post, and which is obvious from comparing the integrals above: for any stationary bound system, the proper volume, which determines ##M_L##, will be larger than the "Euclidean volume" we infer based on the area of the system's boundary (which is what the ##r## coordinate in Schwarzschild coordinates is measuring), which determines ##M_{RC}##, and all of the other factors involved are the same. Therefore, if we see a stationary bound system, like a galaxy, where we have ##M_L < M_{RC}##, and by a large margin, we should infer that there is missing mass that is not luminous.

What I'm looking for is an argument from you, based on some kind of ansatz for a solution describing a galaxy (that will obviously be different from the ansatz I adopted above), for why the simple heuristic argument I gave above should not apply to the actual galaxies we observe. Or, alternatively, you could make an argument that I'm somehow misinterpreting the ansatz I gave and how ##M_{RC}## and ##M_L## would be determined for that idealized case, and that when the correct method of determining them is used, we find ##M_L < M_{RC}##. Just saying "mass is contextual" won't do it. And just pointing to equations 12, 13, and 14 in the arxiv paper, and their surrounding discussions, won't do it, because I don't see any ansatz in there that is based on any kind of physical property that the actual galaxies we observe have (whereas my ansatz above is based on an obvious property they all have, that they are stationary bound systems); as I said at the start of this post, I just see curve fitting and handwaving.

[1] https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/fermi-walker-transport-in-schwarzschild-spacetime/
 
  • #79
PeterDonis said:
The ##M## for the Schwarzschild vacuum region doesn't have to match both. It doesn't have to have any relationship at all to the ##M## for the exterior FLRW region. (In fact, if the exterior FLRW region is spatially infinite, as it is in our best current model of our actual universe, its ##M## is infinite, so it obviously can't be the same as the finite ##M## of the Schwarzschild vacuum region surrounding an isolated system like a galaxy.)

When you marry up the solutions, since M is part of the Schwarzschild metric, it does become determined by the constant, co-moving radial coordinate of the FLRW geometry. So, it is necessarily related to the proper mass of the interior FLRW ball as I show in the AJP paper. Now, you have to again marry up the Schwarzschild metric at the exterior FLRW solution which has the same constant, co-moving radial coordinate but subtends a larger area. That difference in subtended area is matched at the appropriate Schwarzschild radial coordinate per radial free fall. The mass exterior to the radially free falling material with fixed radial FLRW coordinate is irrelevant. So, the proper mass interior to that radial coordinate (which is fixed per constant ##\rho a^3##), as far as the geometry of the FLRW exterior is concerned, is that of the FLRW dust ball.

PeterDonis said:
Then you shouldn't be basing any arguments on it. But you are. If you agree to retract all those arguments, I'll gladly drop this line of discussion. But then you would have to retract a substantial portion of your papers. The only reason I'm discussing this type of model at all is that you did.

First, concerning two different masses for the same matter in GR you said (post #41):

How is this possible in GR? I'm not aware of any solution of the Einstein Field Equation that has this property.

Which I then explained. Then you thought our argument relating proper and dynamic masses gave ##M_{RC} < M_{L}##, as if all our fits would work in such a situation and not be noticed by any referee or reader to date. I corrected your misconception. Then when I described how the proper mass of the interior FLRW dust ball mass would be that inside the disconnected exterior FLRW solution as if there was no vacuum between them, you said (post #67):

This can't be right, because the two FLRW solutions have different geometries.

Which I then explained. Now you're saying the FLRW-Schwarzschild adjoined solution must be mapped to galactic matter distributions for the argument of the paper to follow. As a coauthor of the paper, I can tell you that is not true either. The FLRW-Schwarzschild adjoined solution is used only to show that GR contextuality is a big enough effect to account for the astrophysical missing mass. That's it.
 
  • #80
PeterDonis said:
Ok. Then I'm afraid I don't find equations 12, 13, and 14 and the discussion surrounding them at all convincing. I just see curve fitting and handwaving.

Perhaps I'd better explain in more detail what I'm looking for by considering another idealized example: a static, spherically symmetric matter region of constant density surrounded by Schwarzschild vacuum. Of course this example is highly unrealistic because of the constant density assumption, but it's a common one used for pedagogy in textbooks because it has a known exact solution. The metric for this solution in Schwarzschild coordinates is

$$
ds^2 = - J(r) dt^2 + \frac{1}{1 - \frac{2m(r)}{r}} dr^2 + r^2 d\Omega^2
$$

where ##d\Omega^2## is the standard metric on a 2-sphere. There are two regions, the matter region and the vacuum region, with a boundary between them at ##r = R_0##. In the vacuum region, we have ##m(r) = M## and ##J(r) = 1 - \frac{2M}{r}##. In the matter region, we have

$$
m(r) = 4 \pi \rho \int_0^r r^2 dr = \frac{4}{3} \pi \rho r^3
$$

and

$$
J(r) = \left( \frac{3}{2} \sqrt{1 - \frac{2M}{R_0}} - \frac{1}{2} \sqrt{1 - \frac{2M r^2}{R_0^3}} \right)^2
$$

Note that the above equation for ##m(r)##, when we plug in ##r = R_0##, gives

$$
M = \frac{4}{3} \pi \rho R_0^3
$$

We can compute the orbital frequency ##\omega## of a free-fall circular orbit at radius ##r## using the methods in my Insights article on Fermi-Walker transport [1], which gives a simple way to compute the proper acceleration as a function of ##\omega## (and we can then set the proper acceleration to zero to find the free-fall orbit value of ##\omega##):

$$
A = \frac{1}{2} g^{rr} \left[ \left( \partial_r g_{tt} \right) u^t u^t + \left( \partial_r g_{\phi \phi} \right) u^\phi u^\phi \right] = \frac{1}{2} \left( 1 - \frac{2m(r)}{r} \right) \left( \frac{1}{J(r) - \omega^2 r^2} \partial_r J(r) + \frac{\omega^2}{J(r) - \omega^2 r^2} 2 r \right)
$$

The condition for ##A = 0## is then

$$
\partial_r J(r) = 2 \omega^2 r
$$

which gives

$$
\omega = \sqrt{\frac{1}{2r} \partial_r J(r)}
$$

For the Schwarzschild vacuum region, we have ##\partial_r J(r) = \frac{2 M}{r^2}##, so we get the familiar formula:

$$
\omega = \sqrt{\frac{M}{r^3}}
$$

For the interior matter region, we have

$$
\partial_r J(r) = 2 \left( \frac{3}{2} \sqrt{1 - \frac{2M}{R_0}} - \frac{1}{2} \sqrt{1 - \frac{2M r^2}{R_0^3}} \right) \frac{1}{4} \left( 1 - \frac{2Mr^2}{R_0^3} \right)^{-\frac{1}{2}} \frac{4Mr}{R_0^3}
$$

which gives

$$
\omega = \sqrt{ \left( \frac{3}{2} \sqrt{\frac{R_0^3 - 2M R_0^2}{R_0^3 - 2M r^2}} - \frac{1}{2} \right) \frac{M}{R_0^3} }
$$

Inverting this formula gives us a way to infer ##M## from observations of ##\omega## as a function of ##r## for objects in free-fall orbits in the interior matter region; in other words, it gives us a way to infer ##M_{RC}## from an observed rotation curve. And we will find that ##M_{RC}## inferred in this way is given by the formula for ##M## above, i.e.,

$$
M_{RC} = \frac{4}{3} \pi \rho R_0^3
$$

Now, suppose all the matter in the interior matter region is luminous, and obeys some known mass-luminosity relation. Then we can infer a mass ##M_L## from the observed luminosity. Since the mass-luminosity relation will be derived, as you note, from observations of stars in our own galaxy, we expect that ##M_L## for the interior matter region will be something like "integrate the density over the proper volume". But we know what that integral is:

$$
M_L = 4 \pi \rho \int_0^{R_0} r^2 \sqrt{g_{rr}} dr
$$

where the extra factor of ##\sqrt{g_{rr}}## is the correction to make the integral over the proper volume. We don't even need to evaluate this to see that, since ##g_{rr} > 1## for the entire range of integration, we must end up with ##M_L > M_{RC}##.

As I said, this model is obviously unrealistic; but just on heuristic grounds, I would expect a similar relationship ##M_L > M_{RC}## to hold for any stationary bound system (and a galaxy is such a system, certainly to a good enough approximation for our purposes here) in which all of the matter is luminous, for the simple reason that I've already given in a prior post, and which is obvious from comparing the integrals above: for any stationary bound system, the proper volume, which determines ##M_L##, will be larger than the "Euclidean volume" we infer based on the area of the system's boundary (which is what the ##r## coordinate in Schwarzschild coordinates is measuring), which determines ##M_{RC}##, and all of the other factors involved are the same. Therefore, if we see a stationary bound system, like a galaxy, where we have ##M_L < M_{RC}##, and by a large margin, we should infer that there is missing mass that is not luminous.

What I'm looking for is an argument from you, based on some kind of ansatz for a solution describing a galaxy (that will obviously be different from the ansatz I adopted above), for why the simple heuristic argument I gave above should not apply to the actual galaxies we observe. Or, alternatively, you could make an argument that I'm somehow misinterpreting the ansatz I gave and how ##M_{RC}## and ##M_L## would be determined for that idealized case, and that when the correct method of determining them is used, we find ##M_L < M_{RC}##. Just saying "mass is contextual" won't do it. And just pointing to equations 12, 13, and 14 in the arxiv paper, and their surrounding discussions, won't do it, because I don't see any ansatz in there that is based on any kind of physical property that the actual galaxies we observe have (whereas my ansatz above is based on an obvious property they all have, that they are stationary bound systems); as I said at the start of this post, I just see curve fitting and handwaving.

[1] https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/fermi-walker-transport-in-schwarzschild-spacetime/

You could have skipped all your erroneous complaints thus far and made this legitimate complaint (but then you wouldn't have learned anything new). It is the only valid complaint you have registered. You are saying that it is incumbent upon me to justify the precise functional form of an ansatz from the general properties of adjoined GR solutions a la your argument above that doesn't work. You're not buying any of the reasons for the ansatzes in the paper because they do not come from GR directly. That's a legitimate complaint and that's what I meant had to be done when I said I intend to return to this problem. That being said, there are a number of interesting/non-trivial results from our ansatz fits, so it's not an entirely worthless exercise per empirical science regardless of the motivation for the ansatz per se (see Discussion and Conclusions).

Keep in mind the alternatives are not pretty, i.e., exotic new matter with properties that are incredible (see Carroll) or changing one of our most accurate theories to date (GR).
 
  • #81
RUTA said:
You could have skipped all your erroneous complaints thus far and made this legitimate complaint (but then you wouldn't have learned anything new).

I agree that I was able to give a much more precise statement of the issue in my latest post, yes. But as you say, I would not have been able to do that without all the prior discussion, which has helped me to understand the general problem and to focus in on the key issues that I see.

RUTA said:
That's a legitimate complaint and that's what I meant had to be done when I said I intend to return to this problem.

Fair enough.
 
  • #82
RUTA said:
When you marry up the solutions, since M is part of the Schwarzschild metric, it does become determined by the constant, co-moving radial coordinate of the FLRW geometry.

The interior FLRW geometry, yes.

RUTA said:
you have to again marry up the Schwarzschild metric at the exterior FLRW solution

Yes.

RUTA said:
which has the same constant, co-moving radial coordinate

This I don't understand. If we take the interior FLRW coordinate chart and extend it outward through the Schwarzschild vacuum region (or, for that matter, if we take the exterior FLRW coordinate chart and extend it inward through the Schwarzschild vacuum region), the comoving radial coordinate at the boundary with the interior FLRW region should be smaller than the comoving radial coordinate at the boundary with the exterior FLRW region.

RUTA said:
but subtends a larger area

The spatial surface area of the Schwarzschild-exterior FLRW boundary will be larger than the spatial surface area of the Schwarzschild-interior FLRW boundary, yes.
 
  • #83
RUTA said:
Then you thought our argument relating proper and dynamic masses gave ##M_{RC} < M_{L}##, as if all our fits would work in such a situation and not be noticed by any referee or reader to date.

Just to be clear, this was an early attempt of mine to get at the issue that I described in post #78. In other words, I was not arguing that the ansatzes you actually gave in the paper should give ##M_{RC} < M_{L}##; obviously the ansatzes you actually gave in the paper don't do that, as is clear just from looking at the formulas, much less from looking at the fits to the data. I was arguing that I don't think the ansatzes you actually gave in the paper are justified, for reasons that I didn't articulate clearly until post #78.
 
  • #84
Great discussion. I'm not an expert in dark matter, just an interested physicist trying to follow. A few observations:

The absence of evidence is not (always) the evidence of absence. Failing to observe dark matter in these two galaxies is only compelling that they do not contain dark matter if the error bars are small enough. It has been disappointing for me that the uncertainty in the quantity of dark matter in these galaxies has been treated in such a qualitative manner - more rigorous quantitative treatments of the uncertainties would make the fundamental observational question much clearer and also set a better example for young scientists.

I'm always a bit skeptical when Occam's razor (or some similar idea) is used to favor one hypothesis (or theory or model) over another, especially when the error bars on the essential data are large. Occam's razor is NOT an arbiter among competing ideas in science - experimental data is the ultimate arbiter. (See: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4932.pdf ) In this case, it seems clear that more data is needed. I'm not even sure Occam has a solid track record of picking eventual winners in cases where the available data is as sparse as it is now regarding dark matter. Though I do think more solid evidence for galaxies without dark matter IS (or will be) compelling support for dark matter being real in galaxies where dark matter is the simplest explanation for observations.
 
  • #85
As an outsider, based on what I've been reading, it seams that the missing matter problem might be due to at least these things (not considering religion or simulation hypothesis):
  1. Our cosmological observations are wrong and it is either currently out of reach or impossible to make correct ones.
  2. Our calculations are wrong and it may be currently out of reach or impossible to make correct ones.
  3. Our theory of gravity is inaccurate.
  4. There is non-baryonic dark matter out there.
Is this accurate, and are there others?

I wonder to what extent should we be trying to pick any particular small set of theories as 'bests ones', as a basis for narrowing our minds? And I wonder what is the main point of cosmology, and whether those goals align well with the current scientific approach? Is it for intellectual satisfaction, or sport? Currently one main contribution seams to have been to convince a large portion of the human population (that don't know any better) into believing things that we aren't sure of.

To me, it's more interesting to enumerate the possibilities than it is to try believing in one. Even if the truth is impossible to prove, or the would be correct theory is not-falsifiable, I would still like to think on it.
 
Last edited:
  • #86
Newbie DM person.

DM spherically collects in galaxies (Not all). Does it concentrate near black holes. If not ... why?

If not...is this not a large clue? Do black holes discriminate against DM?
 
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  • #87
sector99 said:
Newbie DM person.

DM spherically collects in galaxies (Not all). Does it concentrate near black holes. If not ... why?

If not...is this not a large clue? Do black holes discriminate against DM?
Interesting question. It made me think.
If DM is interacting only gravitationally how it can form a gravitationally bound state? It has to give up some energy in order to become gravitationally bound, but it has no means to give up that energy. So is the idea of DM sound at the very basic level?
 
  • #88
zonde said:
Interesting question. It made me think.
If DM is interacting only gravitationally how it can form a gravitationally bound state? It has to give up some energy in order to become gravitationally bound, but it has no means to give up that energy. So is the idea of DM sound at the very basic level?

Investigators see (so far) that DM doesn't aggregate towards galactic centers (where black holes reside (mostly). Would a two-part gravitational interaction fit?

Protons repel excepting very large breaching forces to fuse them. This seems to be a two-part force-Strong when forced close...repel under common states.

DM thus might not be drawn into black holes and might not contribute to universe entropy totals.

It's so complicated. Does E=Mc^2 apply for DM?...the "M" isn't the same M.
 
  • #89
zonde said:
Interesting question. It made me think.
If DM is interacting only gravitationally how it can form a gravitationally bound state? It has to give up some energy in order to become gravitationally bound, but it has no means to give up that energy. So is the idea of DM sound at the very basic level?

This is one of the reasons Carroll gives for being surprised by the existence of dark matter.
 
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  • #90
RUTA said:
This is one of the reasons Carroll gives for being surprised by the existence of dark matter.

A major constituent of the universe that (1) collects around galaxies but (2) doesn't aggregate or "clump" towards their centers is a big red flag.

It's a "can you top this one" moment in cosmology.

Maybe a rescue observation will emerge...
 
  • #91
"If DM is interacting only gravitationally how it can form a gravitationally bound state?"

Three-body interaction ??
 
  • #92
zonde said:
If DM is interacting only gravitationally how it can form a gravitationally bound state? [...]
Huh? I'm pretty sure there are bodies in stable orbit around other bodies where only their gravitational interaction is significant.

Or did I misunderstand you? :oldconfused:
 
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  • #93
strangerep said:
I'm pretty sure there are bodies in stable orbit around other bodies where only their gravitational interaction is significant.

But they didn't get into those stable orbits with only gravitational interactions. A typical gravitationally bound system of ordinary matter, like our solar system, had to emit a lot of electromagnetic radiation to infinity in order to get into its current bound state. Dark matter can't do that (if it could emit EM radiation, it wouldn't be dark), so its ability to form bound systems ought to be much reduced compared to ordinary matter.
 
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  • #94
PeterDonis said:
But they didn't get into those stable orbits with only gravitational interactions. A typical gravitationally bound system of ordinary matter, like our solar system, had to emit a lot of electromagnetic radiation to infinity in order to get into its current bound state. Dark matter can't do that (if it could emit EM radiation, it wouldn't be dark), so its ability to form bound systems ought to be much reduced compared to ordinary matter.
While DM doesn't emit EMR it does emit gravitational waves due to its gravitational interaction with both itself and other matter. This does give it a means of losing energy in order to become bound. Since gravitational radiation is many orders weaker than EMR, this is going to be a much slower process, The type of structures you would expect to see in dark matter would be much less compact than what we see with baryonic matter, and this is just what we see.
 
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  • #95
Janus said:
Since gravitational radiation is many orders weaker than EMR, this is going to be a much slower process

Yes, this is why I said DM's ability to form bound systems is expected to be much reduced compared to ordinary matter.
 
  • #96
On the point of "seeing DM", (1) what exactly are observers "seeing"? and (2) are galactic baryons orbiting through DM or orbiting with it?

Here I assume DM somehow avoids galaxy centric black holes.
 
  • #97
sector99 said:
On the point of "seeing DM", (1) what exactly are observers "seeing"? and (2) are galactic baryons orbiting through DM or orbiting with it?
1. They are observing galaxy rotation curves that do not match what you would get if you had baryonic matter alone, they are also observing gravitational lensing.
2. DM is orbiting, whether or not it has a net angular motion wit respect to the galactic center is an open question.
Here I assume DM somehow avoids galaxy centric black holes.
Why? Sure, only a small fraction of DM would end up crossing the event horizon, but we are talking about a pretty small target to hit (at 45 AU), compared to the size of the DM halo.
 
  • #98
For her discovery, Vera should have received more.

https://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/dark_matter_proven.html
A bit of digging for query (1) suggests that x-ray photons, hugely lensed by a galaxy cluster, from a massive, irregular "halo" cloud are what the obsrvers are defining as "proof" of DM.

Hot gas away from the parent galaxies, emitting x-ray photons. This is an indirect photonic measurement attributed as evidence for DM.

These pictures suggest the photonic source gas (attributed to DM) completely envelope a vast galactic cluster, including the space between the galaxies. Perhaps this is Rubin's "missing mass"?

The link present a model image of a sphere of putative DM - gravitationally bound to the cluster. my second query (2) remains: Is DM sensitive to the gravity of a black hole?

Offered in another way: Why would black holes discriminate against DM?
 
  • #99
sector99 said:
my second query (2) remains: Is DM sensitive to the gravity of a black hole?

Offered in another way: Why would black holes discriminate against DM?
For DM to aggregate around black hole it would have to lose energy while in vicinity of black hole. As DM is not interacting with anything (except gravitationally) it can't do that. So as it falls down in gravitational well it just as quickly climbs out of it except if it hits BH directly, but as Janus pointed out it's very small target to hit.
 
  • #100
There's also the vast accretion disk, a massive, very rapidly rotating cloud. Its 'regular matter' exhibits multiple 'internal dissipative processes', but DM, as yet, would seem to notice only gravity. If so, DM may only 'see' the rapid rotation, with some flung 'wide and wild' as if from a spinning lawn sprinkler...

On a smaller scale, this may account for the apparent lack of DM here-abouts. Perhaps local DM was swept up, blown away by our Local Bubble's supernova shock fronts ??

==
OT: Can any-one identify a recent 'Where Are They ?' tale in which 'our' region of space is analogous to 'Sargasso Sea' due to lack of DM for 'fuel' ??
 
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