Dating for Nerds: A Shy Guy's Guide to Meeting Women

[27Thousand]

Miss Silvy is somewhat correct - it's not quatitative. People are unpredictable. One cannot look at a person and know what they are thinking at any given moment. One simply has to experience (interact with) another person over time. And even then the other person might be unpredictable. Trying to fit the behavior of another person to a model is futile.

Something to consider, to put things into perspective it may not be quantitative science in the same way Physics or a test tube in chemistry are, but it's science in the same way that it uses the scientific method like the medical field does. I was looking at some of the follow-up studies, and if you have two groups of people who are exactly the same and you manipulate an independent variable and then measure a dependent variable, then there's a cause-effect relationship. Even if there's a confounding variable involved, something is still acting consistent here and can be further studied and put into use. The studies used actual statistical techniques to make their conclusions quantitative to see that there was statistical significance and effect sizes.

The problem is the effect size, etc, just stays in the peer-review journal articles. They don't usually try to find patterns across studies that deal with effect sizes/mathematical equations, but rather just look at patterns of the general principle (people say they care about the concept rather than details). I don't see equations in psychology textbooks (okay maybe just a few but not many), which makes it vague and doesn't say the other factors which come into play. My proposal is to do what Newton did and turn it more into a quantitative science, patterns across studies rather than just staying inside of the peer-review article itself (when they use null hypothesis testing). From what I've learned from those stats classes I took, from the actual Statistics Department rather than Social Science Department, whenever you have an actual correlation or effect size (even if they're weak) you can always create a mathematical equation to say a general probability to make predictions in a certain range (even if it's a weak equation). My plan is creating equations and then searching for patterns across studies, and then working from there to see how strong/weak these principles really are (by converting it into quantitative science format just like people will convert documents into PDF). It makes it more falsifiable, and thus better able to be refined/improved upon over time (like the natural sciences do). It's kind of like data mining, but there are some differences in my plans. Also in the the hard sciences they say the better something is at making predictions, the more likely it can be used for technology. They already use these principles to come up with predictions, but they don't usually come up with generalized mathematical equations across studies that they want to make testable. So maybe I could use that for my dating life! Also as I said in some of the other posts, I'm not planning on it only being an intellectual adventure but also combining a ton of practice/experience with it.

 

[Pyrrhus]

27Thousand, So she rejected you at that time and at that place... What is the problem?. You pick yourself up, and try again. People are unpredictable, she may have liked you still, but you may have come to strong. You don't typically ask people out that you don't really know that well. Maybe, you could have tried something casual like coffee?. Anyway, I just don't understand, why will you rather follow a Data Modeling approach for your dating life, instead of just going out more, and putting yourself in situations where you'll have to learn from experience. Everyone makes mistakes, the first times they go for the girl. It just does not always work out, but you should never lose sleep because of that.

A thing about data models, they are not as good as you think. You should search the literature just for knowledge. Look for a paper by Leo Breiman, "Statistical Modeling: The Two Cultures".

 

[27Thousand]

27Thousand, So she rejected you at that time and at that place... What is the problem?. You pick yourself up, and try again. People are unpredictable, she may have liked you still, but you may have come to strong. You don't typically ask people out that you don't really know that well. Maybe, you could have tried something casual like coffee?. Anyway, I just don't understand, why will you rather follow a Data Modeling approach for your dating life, instead of just going out more, and putting yourself in situations where you'll have to learn from experience. Everyone makes mistakes, the first times they go for the girl. It just does not always work out, but you should never lose sleep because of that.

A thing about data models, they are not as good as you think. You should search the literature just for knowledge. Look for a paper by Leo Breiman, "Statistical Modeling: The Two Cultures".

Thanks for the encouragement, but what if I need much more than that? Just like usually people use instruction and lots of practice to learn to play the piano rather than use "gut instinct", what if I have to use that strategy in learning to read and deal with women? If it makes me a better person?

I went to Google Scholar and downloaded the Leo Breiman article. It looks interesting, because of a statistics minor, and I'll read it. What I don't understand, if women are completely random then why even try talking to them because you'll get random results? Something I consider, aren't some men better reading women than others and consistent at it? At the most we could say it's difficult to study/measure scientifically/mathematically at this point of time in history (at least), but that doesn't mean there aren't any systematic patterns which occur. If I try looking at many data sets and using R statistical computing to try to visualize and figure them out, I may even see gaps in "unknown" areas, which may lead to future hypotheses in my mind to be tested using the Scientific Method. Maybe I could then experiment in person to figure those areas out after looking at plots, etc. Right now for this very purpose of wanting to look at data sets for dating, I'm looking at many different online manuals on R Statistical computing programming language and practicing what I learn in the program itself. For Statistics 5600, multivariate statistics, we had to use this program (in the other classes we used SAS program but you can't do as much with it's graphics, I've also used SPSS but that's just point and click so you don't have as much control). If it leads to innovation? Then maybe it could help me with my dating life?

Here's a question I have for you, is it just that you don't think we can discover the patterns which happen with women/flirting, or do you think we can but that it would be unnatural to go about relationships in that sort of way? Something I'm trying to figure out, throughout history didn't people say both of those about a lot of things that we can now control through technology? Don't "what if questions" lead to creative innovation?

 

[Monique]

It's not all about learning to read women, it's also about the women being able to read you! Don't take the fun out of flirting by approaching it in a scientific way, you'll risk sending out the wrong signals and being perceived as unnatural.

 

[GeorginaS]

Am I understanding this thread correctly, and this is nerds giving nerds dating advice?

 

[Moonbear]

If you need an equation just to figure out who to ask out on a date, don't you think you'll be in a heap of trouble trying to maintain a relationship if you still can't read social cues properly?

 

[Redbelly98]

Am I understanding this thread correctly, and this is nerds giving nerds dating advice?

I just noticed the OP did not show his attempt at solving the problem. Infractions for everyone who helped will be forthcoming

 

[27Thousand]

It's not all about learning to read women, it's also about the women being able to read you! Don't take the fun out of flirting by approaching it in a scientific way, you'll risk sending out the wrong signals and being perceived as unnatural.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't becoming better at reading people and whether they're actually interested make it so you can be yourself more? Rather than worry about impressing, wouldn't you focus on those who are interested in you and at the same time you're also interested in?

Also, from what I understand with body language, it's two way. If a woman smiles and leans forward, I read that if you pull away she may think the man isn't interested, and that the man should smile back or do something else to flirt if the woman acts this way. Since many on the other threads seemed to doubt that body language takes part in flirting, maybe the equation could demonstrate it and help one think about how it works. Basically many when looking at mathematical equations in Physics will try to make it conceptual how it works, and think about it. What if inventing equations does the same thing?

 

[27Thousand]

If you need an equation just to figure out who to ask out on a date, don't you think you'll be in a heap of trouble trying to maintain a relationship if you still can't read social cues properly?

What about learning how to read if people are interested in you? That one girl on Yahoo Answers who told me to flirt with a girl and see how she responds back as a way to get an idea if a girl is interested?

 

[Pyrrhus]

You're being too reactive, 27Thousand. You seem to think the approach to Women is to react to what they do. Don't worry about that, worry about YOU. Do you enjoy her company? Do you like her? etc..., instead of Does she like me? Does she enjoy spending time with me?, etc..

 

[GeorginaS]

You're being too reactive, 27Thousand. You seem to think the approach to Women is to react to what they do. Don't worry about that, worry about YOU. Do you enjoy her company? Do you like her? etc..., instead of Does she like me? Does she enjoy spending time with me?, etc..

The etc part is important. Cyclovenom has the right idea. Do you share common values? Are the same sorts of basic notions about life important to both of you? Do you feel comfortable with each other? Just relax and see how it feels to be around that person.

Don't stick pins through their wings and tack them down to styrofoam board and stare at them through a magnifying glass. If you're looking at someone and analysing their every move and breath they take, you're going to do nothing but make them feel uncomfortable. You're not really present at that moment; you're all wound up in your own head. The person you're with will sense that but have no clue what's up. Body language is there and real and all of that, yes. But you respond to it on a subconscious level. Truly. Trying to calculate the whole thing just makes the situation awkward and weird.

 

[Monique]

I once dated someone who was compulsive in overanalyzing everything. Besides finding it weird, it was also interesting because it was so out of the ordinary. Finally I told him that he should let go a little, that it is not normal to analyze everything obsessively. You know what he did? He went to a psychologist to have all the tests taken that they had to offer him, he came back to me with the test results. There was nothing wrong with him, he had all the tests with him to show me that..

 

[JasonRox]

I once dated someone who was compulsive in overanalyzing everything. Besides finding it weird, it was also interesting because it was so out of the ordinary. Finally I told him that he should let go a little, that it is not normal to analyze everything obsessively. You know what he did? He went to a psychologist to have all the tests taken that they had to offer him, he came back to me with the test results. There was nothing wrong with him, he had all the tests with him to show me that..

Did he have a graph of the sex life too?

With it's peaks and downs, analyzing the correlation of alcohol with sex, food with sex, and so on...

Jeez...

How long did that last?

 

[Redbelly98]

What about learning how to read if people are interested in you? That one girl on Yahoo Answers who told me to flirt with a girl and see how she responds back as a way to get an idea if a girl is interested?

That actually sounds like a good idea, get some real experience and practice flirting and see what happens.

 

[GeorginaS]

That actually sounds like a good idea, get some real experience and practice flirting and see what happens.

Sorry, but, "practice flirting"? That's distinguished from "actual flirting" how?

You think in your mind, "Okay, now I'm going to tilt my head to the left and look directly into her eyes while she's talking. And then I'll ask her if she's pleased that I'm being so attentive. If she says 'no' then I'll take out my note pad, mark that down, and explain to her that that wasn't a 'real' thing, just a 'practise' thing and so not to take it seriously as something I do for real. Unless she likes it."

 

[DanP]

Enjoy:P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPQSMdUF5b8&feature=PlayList&p=78CF843E75D3C1B2&index=30

 

[Redbelly98]

Sorry, but, "practice flirting"? That's distinguished from "actual flirting" how?

Who said anything about there being a distiniction?

 

[DanP]

OP, start to think of yourself as the God's gift to women. Delusion is sometimes highly useful.

 

[GeorginaS]

OP, start to think of yourself as the God's gift to women. Delusion is sometimes highly useful.

Delusion sometimes is, yes. The first part, though, no, absolutely not helpful at all.

 

[DanP]

Delusion sometimes is, yes. The first part, though, no, absolutely not helpful at all.

Are you sure ?

 

[GeorginaS]

Are you sure ?

If you're attempting to get involved with sane women, yes, I'm sure.

 

[DanP]

If you're attempting to get involved with sane women, yes, I'm sure.

No man or women is sane :P

 

[JasonRox]

If you're attempting to get involved with sane women, yes, I'm sure.

Yeah right, I find most girls are easy to fool.

 

[GeorginaS]

Yeah right, I find most girls are easy to fool.

Now see? I don't even necessarily insist that I'm entirely sane, however that particular attitude isn't the least bit attractive or appealing.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Delusion sometimes is, yes. The first part, though, no, absolutely not helpful at all.

There are guys who act like God's gift to women, without actually believing it deep down, who are incredibly obnoxious.

Guys who authentically believe it wear the delusion in complete comfort and security, and don't render themselves obnoxious asserting and defending it. They read as calm, confident, warm, charming, but a tad remote, and you'll often see a glint of amusement in their eyes, as if, inside, they just can't take you, or anything, really seriously. This drives girls nuts. They'll go to great lengths to penetrate that "God's Gift" look of amusement in the attempt to be taken seriously, mostly in the form of trying to please the guy.

Unfortunately, it's a doomed quest: most guys like this are sociopaths.

 

[DaveC426913]

No man or women is sane :P

"The majority is always sane."^{[1 para 8]}

 

[GeorginaS]

There are guys who act like God's gift to women, without actually believing it deep down, who are incredibly obnoxious.

Guys who authentically believe it wear the delusion in complete comfort and security, and don't render themselves obnoxious asserting and defending it. They read as calm, confident, warm, charming, but a tad remote, and you'll often see a glint of amusement in their eyes, as if, inside, they just can't take you, or anything, really seriously. This drives girls nuts. They'll go to great lengths to penetrate that "God's Gift" look of amusement in the attempt to be taken seriously, mostly in the form of trying to please the guy.

Unfortunately, it's a doomed quest: most guys like this are sociopaths.

That's brilliant, zoobyshoe. Both incisive and insightful.

 

[DaveC426913]

Guys who authentically believe it wear the delusion in complete comfort and security, and don't render themselves obnoxious asserting and defending it. They read as calm, confident, warm, charming, but a tad remote, and you'll often see a glint of amusement in their eyes, as if, inside, they just can't take you, or anything, really seriously. This drives girls nuts. They'll go to great lengths to penetrate that "God's Gift" look of amusement in the attempt to be taken seriously, mostly in the form of trying to please the guy.
Unfortunately, it's a doomed quest: most guys like this are sociopaths.

omg, you've just described my brother. Not toward women, he just excudes confidence and success in general.

But he's no sociopath.

 

[Surreal Ike]

The best thing is if you run into her away from your house, then you can come up to her and say "Hey." and then wait for her to look at you and then say "I think maybe you live across the street from me" and then maybe she will recognize you and maybe not, and you can tell her that you sometimes see her on the bus, and ask her questions about that ("how much does it cost?" "do people tend to have conversations or is it mostly quiet?") and talk about random places in your neighborhood (especially good if she's new, then you can tell her about whatever the most interesting places are).

If you can't run into her somewhere else, things will be more difficult. You could just go across the street and say you're new to the neighborhood and ask something about the neighborhood (e.g. where are interesting places to go friday night, or anything odd you might have seen), or say that you saw her waiting for the bus, and you couldn't let the opportunity pass by, and if she would like to eat lunch with you some time. The second one will be better if you're knocking on her door because people don't usually make casual conversation with their neighbors. Well I guess you could make a good casual conversation based on the fact that you're new to the neighborhood.

A third approach is to find an interesting place to go that's in the same direction she's going and wait for the same bus she does. Figure out something in advance to ask her when she waits with you. Start by saying "hi" or "good afternoon" or whatever, then wait for her response, and then have something planned out in advance like "Where are you off to" or "What's the story behind <insert item of clothing>" or "How long have you lived around here" and then when she answers, say you're new (living with relatives) and then ask her some kind of question about the neighborhood (do you like it? Do you tend to get any interesting neighborhood disruptions? Do kids play in the neighborhood? Where did you live before here? Before coming to live with my relatives, I lived in <insert place>. <Insert story about inserted place.> Going to college? What's your major?)

Basically you want to be strategic in setting up some sort of casual encounter that seems minimally unusual and you want to have things to talk about. If necessary make a list and then come up with an acronym that will help you with the list. E.g. PHYSICS for Parents, Household Repairs, Your Childhood, or whatever. Talking about things in the news is good too, or the weather, or a book you've been reading if you do it in a way that a normal person can understand.

Also confidence is useful. Since screwing up with this girl will be a little bit painful (you'll see her every so often and it will be an unpleasant reminder) you might want to level up and practice talking to strangers that you don't care about the opinions of so you will be less nervous when you talk to this girl. If you really want to level up you could take an acting class or a storytelling class or join Toastmasters or a public speaking class, but if you do these things, do them for your own sake (you want to improve your communication skills, and seeing this girl just reminded you that it would be worth boning up. It's not good to go through a lot of effort just for someone you haven't even met yet.)

Also you can ask your friends for more advice.

 

[zoobyshoe]

That's brilliant, zoobyshoe. Both incisive and insightful.

Thank you kindly!