Engineering Decline in engineering/science jobs market? China outcompeting us?

[chill_factor]

As I am doing undergrad in China, I would like to say something on this topic.
The undergrad teaching quality in China, I have to say, is much worse then it in the U.S. on average. Since the overpopulation problem, every subject, even physics, is full of students who do not love it but just want to make money and fame from it (even some top students). Also because teaching quality is not an essential factor evaluating a professor/ap/lecturer, excellent teachers only stand a small proportion.
However, this never means there are no outstanding Chinese students. There will always be the ones who are talented and hardworking, and they goto the top universities in the world after graduation.
On the research quality: some Chinese scientists did their phd in the US or other countries, and then stayed and did excellent research, but it's kind of have nothing to do with their motherland. In China, Chinese government focuses on several important research topics and support these researches with great efforts, and these researches are first class ones in the world. However, this only happens at limited top universities/institutions in China, and in other universities, most people just do some so-called research, publish it in a low-qualified Chinese journal, and they are doing this just because it is related to their positions and incomes. So the average research level in China is quite low.

are you yourself chinese?

i actually think the quality of undergraduate education in the US is lower, having seen both, at least for chemistry. the curriculum in china is more quantitative and more rigorous. you can't bulls* your way out of it and the teachers know it. the problems are straight calculations whenever applicable, no multiple choice or short answer BS like I've done in the US. my last chemistry test for physical biochemistry, we were doing fluoresence spectroscopy, not 1 calculation, all ambiguous concept questions. in china, it would've been all straight calculations. this is for chemistry. whether the students themselves are good or not is not a measurement for how well the program is put together. the standards are quite high, its just that most don't meet those standards.

the majority of people in my classes, both in china and in the US, don't care. don't act like this is unique to china. most of the people in my US organic chemistry class, for example, were premeds that didn't give a s* about chemistry at all and truly hated chemistry, but only cared about having a high GPA for med school. funny thing was, americans think that chinese schools care only about "rote memorization" but the US organic chemistry class emphasized mechanisms and electron pushing which are pure memorization and totally useless on the job, while the chinese organic chemistry class emphasized how to design a synthesis route which is straight problem solving and quite useful in the real world. this may be different for physics, but in chemistry i saw that students in china are far more skilled on average than students in the US with the major exception of instrumental analysis on the more expensive instruments.

this is comparing UCI and huazhong university of science and technology, top 50 in each country.

 

[chill_factor]

In my university, the top ones are always looking forward to do grad study in US or UK .etc.
About 40% of the students in my department choose to go abroad for higher education, and they are just the top 40% (though with only a few exceptions). Other students do not choose mostly because their academic performance is too bad to get a chance.
I believe generally a student in China will prefer chances of studying in the US .etc, rather then in China. Their choices are affected by their academic performance, but not preference.
However, nowadays some top students also choose to stay in China rather then go to the US, because they will enter some best labs in the whole country. Due to the limited number of these labs, top students who want to stay are not so much. But I believe the number is growing.

in my hometown, there are, added together, maybe 100 students that want to go overseas. this is an objective sample given by the number that register for GRE classes at New Oriental. we have a top 5 university here too, so its not like they students are dumb. but I'm from central china, in beijing, shanghai and coastal cities, the proportion is likely much higher, even for lower ranked schools. i assume you attended qinghua, beida or fudan?

 

[twofish-quant]

In my university, the top ones are always looking forward to do grad study in US or UK .etc.

That's true now, but I wonder if it is going to be true in two to three years. The problem is that unemployment in the US is 10% whereas the Chinese economy is very rapidly growing. So you have a pretty massive number of Chinese students in the US that can't find jobs there.

 

[twofish-quant]

One other problem is that it's really hard to do apples and apples comparisons. There are very few people that have done an undergraduate in both the US and China, and one thing that I've seen about education is that people often idealize how things work "over there."

 

[Reshma]

There is no question that India and China (and maybe some others too) are producing more graduates with engineering degrees (although I hesitate to use the word "engineers" because being an engineer is about so much more than a piece of paper from a university saying you've passed an engineering degree) than in the West.

However, and its not me saying this but rather the employers that I talk to, the problem lies in the quality and experience of these graduates. India and China have mastered rote learning, and indeed they do know a little more about the physics and equations behind things. But when it comes to actually applying this to solve real-world problems, they find it difficult. That's exactly what I've been told by Indian post-graduates at my university - engineering degrees in India do not even attempt to give you the skills to apply what you learn at university to real life situations in work.

I don’t think the situation is any different whether it is in India, China, US or UK. How much real world engineering experience will an undergraduate have anyway? Maybe engineering undergraduates in UK/US have more opportunities to attempt real world engineering problems through undergrad research internships which are few in Indian universities. But that doesn’t mean they will never learn.

My those that I've talked to, when their companies have outsourced jobs to India and China, they've all been completely ****ed up. My dad is in IT and he says that they are excellent programmers, but when it comes to design, innovation, customer support, management and leadership, they are lacking.

So I'm not particularly worried about my future jobs getting outsourced yet.

You must know that Business process outsourcing (BPO) jobs are not exactly the most favourite jobs for most Indians. The bulk of the people employed in such jobs are in the age group of 18-24 years and there are no long term career prospects in these jobs. Most are either high school graduates or students mid-way through college, looking to make some extra bucks along the way. They are only given a basic training in software debugging or telemarketing, customer services skills. On an average they are paid about 10,000 Indian Rupees per month which is roughly $200. Certainly engineering graduates who are good in software design, innovation and leadership wouldn’t want such jobs. And besides, isn’t the #1 reason why jobs get outsourced to India/China to cut costs? Can you get any American Engineer to work for $200 per month?

 

[Reshma]

When I was an undergraduate in the 1980s (in electrical engineering), I recall hearing repeatedly that my generation had better learn Japanese if we wanted to be able to compete in the "new" economy. That was not long before Japan's potemkin economy went bust, and it has stayed relatively bust ever since then.

I think you are being unfair. One must give due credit to Japan for building up a very strong economy in a relatively short span of time (i.e. post World War II). Their current economic problems are mainly due to the fact that Japan is a small country and not very rich in natural resources compared to US and China. They have to heavily rely on imports for food, fuel etc.

The U.S. and Europe have many economic shortcomings, but so do China and India. We have massive debt but also the best universities and many of the strongest businesses in the world; China has a big surplus but the vast majority of its population remains in the impoverished countryside, and it was an economic backwater just ten years ago and could well be again in another ten years, like many previous "tiger" economies.

Agreed, Indian economy is quite young. The economy opened up only in the late 90s, prior to that, India virtually had a socialist economy. We still have a long way to go to achieve any long term economic goals. It is just all countries need not ape the economic policies of US and it is not going to work.

None of this, of course, implies that the U.S. (or anyone else) will be able to retain a dominant position indefinitely into the future.

There is no reason to be Xenophobic, given any frame of time, the average Indian or Chinese would be just be as worried about losing his/her job as an average American.

 

[Stan Marsh]

in my hometown, there are, added together, maybe 100 students that want to go overseas. this is an objective sample given by the number that register for GRE classes at New Oriental. we have a top 5 university here too, so its not like they students are dumb. but I'm from central china, in beijing, shanghai and coastal cities, the proportion is likely much higher, even for lower ranked schools. i assume you attended qinghua, beida or fudan?

hi~
I am from University of Science and Technology of China. It is true that in our univ the "tradition" of pursuing oversea graduate study is quite strong. But I guess the situation is quite similar in other top universities like THU, PKU or Fudan, especially in the nature science departments like physics, chemistry and math. (In engineering the proportion is usually smaller)

By the way, the student number of your local New Oriental School may not be a convincing reflection of student number of those who want to go to the US. In our univ most students prefer to go to New Oriental at Beijing because they believe the education quality is much better than the local one's (Hefei). So possibly a larger number of students in your univ are thinking of going to the US.

 

[Stan Marsh]

That's true now, but I wonder if it is going to be true in two to three years. The problem is that unemployment in the US is 10% whereas the Chinese economy is very rapidly growing. So you have a pretty massive number of Chinese students in the US that can't find jobs there.

I guess for students learning nature science, for a long period they will prefer studying in the US, no matter they want to stay in the US or go back to China after graduation. (BTW most top universities in China nowadays recruit scientists with oversea research experiences ONLY, which makes oversea study quite necessary for a faculty career.)

But for engineering/applied science students, the situation may change. Or they may take doing graduate study abroad and going back as a first choice. But anyway, if you really want to learn something, going to the US will be the best choice.

 

[Stan Marsh]

are you yourself chinese?

i actually think the quality of undergraduate education in the US is lower, having seen both, at least for chemistry. the curriculum in china is more quantitative and more rigorous. you can't bulls* your way out of it and the teachers know it. the problems are straight calculations whenever applicable, no multiple choice or short answer BS like I've done in the US. my last chemistry test for physical biochemistry, we were doing fluoresence spectroscopy, not 1 calculation, all ambiguous concept questions. in china, it would've been all straight calculations. this is for chemistry. whether the students themselves are good or not is not a measurement for how well the program is put together. the standards are quite high, its just that most don't meet those standards.

the majority of people in my classes, both in china and in the US, don't care. don't act like this is unique to china. most of the people in my US organic chemistry class, for example, were premeds that didn't give a s* about chemistry at all and truly hated chemistry, but only cared about having a high GPA for med school. funny thing was, americans think that chinese schools care only about "rote memorization" but the US organic chemistry class emphasized mechanisms and electron pushing which are pure memorization and totally useless on the job, while the chinese organic chemistry class emphasized how to design a synthesis route which is straight problem solving and quite useful in the real world. this may be different for physics, but in chemistry i saw that students in china are far more skilled on average than students in the US with the major exception of instrumental analysis on the more expensive instruments.

this is comparing UCI and huazhong university of science and technology, top 50 in each country.

My point is mainly based on my information of physics teaching, so maybe it is not comprehensive. It seems physics major students in the US top universities learn much more then us, and the study is more stressing. This is also true in math. That's a reason why Chinese students can hardly get an offer if he states that he wants to do theoretical physics: his background just is not strong enough. The motivation of most Chinese students is also not strong. Lots of people have no interest in physics, and just care about getting higher GPA than others (maybe it's a common problem). However, for a student with genuine interest in physics, the US educational system seems to be more capable of giving him what he wants.
In Russia, the physics teaching is also of high quality. That's why US universities prefer Russian students for theoretical physics study.

 

[twofish-quant]

I think you are being unfair. One must give due credit to Japan for building up a very strong economy in a relatively short span of time (i.e. post World War II).

Something to remember was that Japan was an industrialized economy before WWII. Much of Japanese economic development happened in the late-19th century.

Their current economic problems are mainly due to the fact that Japan is a small country and not very rich in natural resources compared to US and China. They have to heavily rely on imports for food, fuel etc.

It's also because Japan and the US are fully industrialized. The reason that China and India are growing so quickly is that both economies are so undeveloped that it's easy to find places to general growth. It's much harder for the US to do it.

It is just all countries need not ape the economic policies of US and it is not going to work.

For that matter there is no particular reason why different countries have to copy each other. China and India have *radically* different economic structures that both seem to work.

 

[chill_factor]

My point is mainly based on my information of physics teaching, so maybe it is not comprehensive. It seems physics major students in the US top universities learn much more then us, and the study is more stressing. This is also true in math. That's a reason why Chinese students can hardly get an offer if he states that he wants to do theoretical physics: his background just is not strong enough. The motivation of most Chinese students is also not strong. Lots of people have no interest in physics, and just care about getting higher GPA than others (maybe it's a common problem). However, for a student with genuine interest in physics, the US educational system seems to be more capable of giving him what he wants.
In Russia, the physics teaching is also of high quality. That's why US universities prefer Russian students for theoretical physics study.

now i understand why we have differences of opinion. my area in general, chemistry, and associated areas such as chemical engineering and materials engineering, are highly supported by the government because they are very applied and practical, and have the least distance from the world's top; in some certain areas we are the world's top. our theoretical physics has a far distance from the world's top. recent papers in theoretical physics are almost all western, while papers in chemistry and materials have their fair share of chinese authors. this may be as you said, our more theoretical sciences simply don't get enough funding while applied science and engineering get more funding and get better teachers.

your comment about the students in US physics programs may be true! but do note that in china its harder to transfer out of a major! the reason physics programs in the US are motivated are because the people that can't handle it are allowed to give up so the average motivation of the students goes up! while in china giving up is not allowed, so the unmotivated students keep struggling in physics instead of switch to something easier or they are interested in.

 

[John Mario]

I''ve just had enough of all this panic about China/India/BRICs/Asia outcompeting "the declining West". I mean, you would think by this time all the corporations would have moved to China and taken all the jobs with them. China graduates hundreds of thousands new engineers every year who are ready to work for a fraction of what your average engineer at Boeing/GM/Google is working for. But somehow most of the jobs that go there are the jobs in call centers or plastics manufacturing. Silicon Valley still remains the biggest center of innovation. The US universities still attract the best students from all over the world. None of my friends want to go to graduate school in China, even my Chinese friends. So I think all this depression and despair about "the nation" in decline that one often reads on the pages of NYT is rather misplaced.

I think that concern over engineering jobs is appropriate. Some US companies have moved their engineering staff overseas. In addition, one might recall that a Presidential helicopter contract was given to an overseas corporation. Overseas competition for engineering jobs is increasing. That's a natural part of the new global economy. However, from my observations on the internet, there are still plenty of engineering jobs in the US. The hot spots for jobs may change from location to location.

 

[twofish-quant]

now i understand why we have differences of opinion. my area in general, chemistry, and associated areas such as chemical engineering and materials engineering, are highly supported by the government because they are very applied and practical, and have the least distance from the world's top

That's what really worries me long term. The Chinese government clearly sees how science and technology can be useful for economic growth and is willing to put government money in certain sectors. What worries me about the US is that the anti-government mood is going to cause money to be cut to everything. Also big science is something that socialist governments (i.e. the Soviet Union) are good at.

While in china giving up is not allowed, so the unmotivated students keep struggling in physics instead of switch to something easier or they are interested in.

It's also that physics still has some credibility in China that it doesn't have in the United States. In the US, if you want big money and be popular, you go into business or law. US students in science and engineering tend to be motivated by love of the topic, because if you didn't love the topic, you'd get a business degree.

 

[Shaun_W]

I don’t think the situation is any different whether it is in India, China, US or UK. How much real world engineering experience will an undergraduate have anyway? Maybe engineering undergraduates in UK/US have more opportunities to attempt real world engineering problems through undergrad research internships which are few in Indian universities. But that doesn’t mean they will never learn.

I'll only speak of the UK since that's where I study.

I'm not sure how much experience the average engineering undergrad will have accumulated before he/she graduates here as I have not seen statistics, nor am I inclined to look. However, I know from my university, the average undergrad will have at least two summers of work experience as this is mandatory to pass the course. This works out to around eight months at a bare minimum.

But plenty also have contacts in industry, or otherwise successfully manage to secure work placements over summers where a work placement is not a necessary part of the course. So there's the potential for someone to have accumulated well over a year's worth of real world engineering experience by the time they graduate from my university. A significant minority manage to get work placements over all four summers, and plenty of the rest manage to get placements after a years study.

You must know that Business process outsourcing (BPO) jobs are not exactly the most favourite jobs for most Indians. The bulk of the people employed in such jobs are in the age group of 18-24 years and there are no long term career prospects in these jobs. Most are either high school graduates or students mid-way through college, looking to make some extra bucks along the way. They are only given a basic training in software debugging or telemarketing, customer services skills. On an average they are paid about 10,000 Indian Rupees per month which is roughly $200. Certainly engineering graduates who are good in software design, innovation and leadership wouldn’t want such jobs. And besides, isn’t the #1 reason why jobs get outsourced to India/China to cut costs? Can you get any American Engineer to work for $200 per month?

But a job's a job, particularly when lots of people don't have one.

To your last question: how many get the chance? I'm from a well enough off family that I don't need my own money to live. I'd easily work for what they'd pay someone in India if it meant getting some experience under my belt. I earned not a single penny this summer but the experience I gained from voluntary work with a charity is invaluable in putting my CV above other people's.

 

[Shaun_W]

What worries me deeply is that I really am not sure that this is viable.

I don't see why it's not viable. It's easy money - doesn't get much easier than getting money for other people's work - and I think that with the decline in STEM skills we're just going to have to make it viable.