Definite Integral Explained: Negative & Positive Areas

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of definite integrals, specifically addressing the interpretation of positive and negative areas under curves. Participants explore the implications of negative values in integrals and how they relate to physical areas, as well as the mathematical treatment of these integrals in various contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the integral can yield negative values, but physical areas, such as floor space, cannot be negative, necessitating careful interpretation of areas under the x-axis.
  • Others argue that the definite integral of a function that takes both positive and negative values represents the difference between two areas: the area above the x-axis and the area below it.
  • A participant clarifies that the term "area" used in the context of integrals may be misleading, as it refers to the integral value which can be negative, while actual area is always positive.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of understanding the formula for the area between curves, particularly when the function crosses the x-axis, which affects the sign of the integral.
  • Some contributions highlight that the sign of the integral indicates the direction of the area relative to the x-axis, and that absolute values are used to determine physical areas.
  • Participants mention strategies for solving integrals, such as splitting them into smaller parts when dealing with sharp points or intersections, and using symmetry to simplify calculations.
  • There are suggestions that different approaches, like integrating from the highest to the lowest function, may provide intuitive insights into applications in various fields.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of negative areas in integrals and the implications for physical areas. There is no consensus on a single interpretation, and multiple competing perspectives remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the potential for misunderstanding the terminology used in discussing areas and integrals, as well as the need for clarity on the conditions under which certain mathematical treatments apply. The discussion does not resolve these ambiguities.

grace77
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Can anyone explain this to me? What does if mean that the area may sometimes be negative but that the area must be positive??
 
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The integral "area" may come out negative, but physical areas like "floor space" cannot be negative.
This means you have to be careful about when the areas under the x-axis are subtracted.
 
What that pitiful "explanation" is trying to say is that if the function ##f## assumes both positive and negative values, then the definite integral of ##f## is the difference of two areas:
$$\int_a^b f(x) dx = A_1 - A_2$$
where ##A_1## is the area between the ##x## axis and the positive part of the function, and ##A_2## is the area between the ##x## axis and the negative part of the function.

In the picture in your attachment, area ##A_1## is approximated by the first four and last two rectangles, and ##A_2## is approximated by the middle five rectangles.

[edit]: By pitiful "explanation" I mean of course the one in your image attachment, not in the response given by Simon Bridge.:-p
 
It doesn't say that. If you read it correctly you will see that it says 'the "area" may be negative but area is always positive'. The first "area" is in quotes which means that it is using the word in a very loose sense. It is saying that the integral you get, which if it were above the x-axis would be the area, is negative so cannot be the actual area.
 
@grace77: In case you are still confused about this, you should remember that the formula for the area between two curves between ##x=a## and ##x=b## is always$$
A =\int_a^b y_{upper}-y_{lower}~dx$$Students get used to working problems where ##f(x)\ge 0## on ##[a,b]## with ##\int_a^bf(x)~dx## which works since ##y_{upper}=f(x)## and ##y_{lower}=0##, the ##x## axis. But when you are calculating the area between a curve and the ##x## axis, and the curve crosses the ##x## axis, ##x## axis is now the upper curve, and on that portion ##y_{upper}-y_{lower}## becomes ##0-f(x)##, which changes the sign of the integrand on that portion. You normally break such integrals into two or more parts to work them.
 
Having a positive or negative area indicates its direction above or below the axis.
For example:

$$ \int^{1}_{0}-x^{2}dx=\left[-\dfrac{1}{3}x^{3}\right]^{1}_{0} $$
##= -\dfrac{1}{3} ##

This indicates, that between x=0 and x=1 for x2, there is a 1/3 area2 DOWNWARDS (below the x-axis in this case)

For finding the area, for example, as mentioned above, floor-space, you take the absolute value of the integral. That is:

$$ \left|\int^{1}_{0}-x^{2}dx\right|=\left|\left[-\dfrac{1}{3}x^{3}\right]^{1}_{0}\right| $$
##=\left|-\dfrac{1}{3}\right| ##
##=\dfrac{1}{3}## units2
 
Also remember that it can be easier to do these problems with respect to x or y.


Remember to split your integral from [a, b] into smaller" pieces if there are sharp(cusps) or the curves where the area is bounded by intersect. Your book should explain. I believe there are 4 scenarios from the top of my head.

Would you like an example?
 
Also use of symmetry can make the problem (computational wise) easier. And some people prefer to use the integral from b to a of THE HIGHEST FUNCTION - MINUS THE LO WEST FUNCTION

Instead of the taking the absolute value. I believe the first option is best because it allows you to get an intuitive feel for the application aspects. Such as finance, bio, Chem problems.
 

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