Density terms in the stress-energy momentum tensor

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the density terms within the stress-energy momentum tensor of the Einstein field equations, focusing on the definitions and calculations of energy and momentum densities in relativistic contexts. Participants explore the implications of volume in these definitions and seek clarity on the relationships between different components of the tensor.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether relativistic energy and momentum should be divided by volume to derive density terms, expressing confusion over the lack of mention of volume in existing resources.
  • Another participant suggests that the volumes should be defined by the observer in a local, freely falling reference frame, indicating that this is a common approach in theoretical work.
  • A different participant emphasizes the importance of starting with a textbook to understand the basic formalism of space-time physics, implying that the questions raised are foundational in nature.
  • One participant notes that the choice of basis vectors is crucial for defining tensors and that using an orthonormal set can yield a more intuitive volume element, contrasting it with the coordinate basis vectors.
  • There is a discussion about the interpretation of the first row and column of the stress-energy tensor, with some sources describing them as energy flux and momentum density, while others refer to both as momentum density.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of dividing relativistic quantities by volume, and there is no consensus on the interpretation of the tensor components. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the definitions and implications of density in this context.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention that textbooks do not extensively cover volume elements in relation to the stress-energy tensor, indicating a potential gap in available resources for learners.

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The stress energy momentum tensor of the Einstein field equations contains multiple density terms such as the energy density and the momentum density. I know how to calculate relativistic energy and momentum, but none of the websites or videos that I have watched make mention of any division of these relativistic terms by volume. Now I may be taking the word density too literally, but when I hear the word density I define it as the amount of something (usually mass or energy) divided by the volume in which that thing is contained.


Having said that, I must ask you all this question: Am I supposed to divide the relativistic quantities by some measure of volume to derive these various density terms? I am just asking this because nothing that I have seen makes any mention of volume when talking about the density terms in the stress energy momentum tensor.


If I do have to divide by volume, do I have to divide by any new volumes that are brought on by Lorentz contraction of special relativity, or do I simply divide by the object's ordinary volume?

Finally, are the 1st row of elements and the 1st column (aside from T00) really the same quantities? I ask this because some sources describe the first row as the energy flux and the 1st column as the momentum density. Other sources describe both the 1st row and the 1st column as momentum density.

Sorry if these questions seem to basic. I am in high school right now and my school sadly does not have a class on general relativity. Most of my knowledge in this field comes due to self study. It is for this reason that I would greatly appreciate it if anyone posted a link to a free downloadable paper, pdf or university textbook pertaining to this area. Don't worry about finding a simplified version because I am well versed in the mathematics of it.

Thank you.
 
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The volumes are those defined by the observer in a local, freely falling reference frame in the most common scenarios.

In most theoretical work they simply posit some density and then solve for the metric so that the local geodesics can be found. Of course if you have good experimental data you could use that instead!
 
space-time said:
...I would greatly appreciate it if anyone posted a link to a free downloadable paper, pdf or university textbook pertaining to this area.

Carroll has some very good lectures here, each chapter in .pdf format.
 
UltrafastPED said:
The volumes are those defined by the observer in a local, freely falling reference frame in the most common scenarios.

And how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

space-time said:
I am in high school right now and my school sadly does not have a class on general relativity. Most of my knowledge in this field comes due to self study.

If so, start with a textbook and these questions will answer themselves because, as you correctly guessed, they constitute very basic textbook material. I can tell from your posts that you haven't yet gotten a grasp of the basic formalism of space-time physics both in the SR and GR contexts- I was in your exact same scenario 2 years ago so trust me, you have to start with a textbook.

EDIT: Here is my favorite introductory GR text: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0805386629/?tag=pfamazon01-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
space-time said:
The stress energy momentum tensor of the Einstein field equations contains multiple density terms such as the energy density and the momentum density. I know how to calculate relativistic energy and momentum, but none of the websites or videos that I have watched make mention of any division of these relativistic terms by volume. Now I may be taking the word density too literally, but when I hear the word density I define it as the amount of something (usually mass or energy) divided by the volume in which that thing is contained.Having said that, I must ask you all this question: Am I supposed to divide the relativistic quantities by some measure of volume to derive these various density terms? I am just asking this because nothing that I have seen makes any mention of volume when talking about the density terms in the stress energy momentum tensor.

Alas, I don't have any online references on this point - I saw some, once, but I can't find them. Textbooks also don't seem to spend a lot of time on volume elements I find.

The first thing you need to do to define any sort of tensor is pick out a set of basis vectors. One choice for your basis vectors is to use the coordinate basis vectors, this yields a volume element that isn't very intuitive. If you choose as your basis vectors for the tensor an orthonormal set, you can think of your volume element with those basis vectors as being the usual special relativistic volume element for the SR observer that has the same set of basis vectors. Many textbooks (including one of my favorites, MTW) will distinguish tensors with an orthonormal set of basis vectors by giving them a "hat" symbol, ##\hat{T_{ij}}##. Not all texts will do this, because the equations are in tensor form it doesn't matter for writing down the equations what set of basis vectors you use. However, when trying to interpret tensor equations physically, or when talking about the value of specific components (like ##\rho##) in non-tensor notation, it's needed information.

This is basically the same prescription that another poster offered (use the SR volume element of a comoving observer), but the issue with the choice of basis vectors wasn't mentioned.
 

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