Derivation of the CHSH inequality

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the CHSH inequality as presented in Bell's 1971 work. Participants explore the mathematical framework and assumptions underlying the derivation, including the independence of outcomes and the role of hidden variables. The focus is on the relationships between expectation values and the application of mathematical principles such as the triangle inequality.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines Bell's derivation, emphasizing the use of the symbol ‘E’ for expected values and the assumption of independence of outcomes based on hidden variables.
  • Questions arise regarding the joint probability of outcomes and the underlying relationships between the expectation values E(a,b), E(a,b′), E(a′,b), and E(a′,b′).
  • Another participant discusses the manipulation of terms in the derivation, questioning the justification for adding terms of the form D - D and how this relates to the expectation values.
  • There is a proposal to define terms D1, D2, D3, and D4 corresponding to the expectation values, leading to further inquiries about the mathematical principles that validate their relationships.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the correctness of specific equations and seek clarification on the shared properties of the terms involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationships between the expectation values and the validity of certain mathematical manipulations. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the correctness of the proposed equations or the justification for the manipulations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential limitations in understanding the derivation, including assumptions about independence, the nature of hidden variables, and the mathematical steps involved in the derivation of the CHSH inequality.

  • #61
Alien8 said:
3FMSPStoreType%3Dimage%2Fgif%26s%3D58%26w%3D532.%26h%3D71.&hash=933bc6bfdf4d0ebf8dd19fdd2027377a.png


Shouldn't we be puzzled by this similarity between 1/2 cos2(a-b) and cos2(a-b)? Local theory ended up with (a-b) term even though a and b should be oblivious to one another. It's interesting, the same function only squashed in half. I mean, whatever non-local magic QM describes the mechanics of it is somehow captured by this Malus' law integral.

If I understand stevendaryl's model correctly, this is in fact the quantum mechanical prediction for unentangled pairs, ie. without entanglement quantum mechanics does not violate the Bell inequality, and its predictions can be reproduced by a local theory. A local theory, and quantum mechanics without entanglement, is able to produce correlations between distant locations, because of correlations in the source. The famous example is that if I prepare a pair of socks, each pair having a different random colour, but both socks in a pair having the same colour, and send one to Alice and the other to Bob, they will receive socks with random colours, but their colours will always be correlated. In stevendaryl's example, the orientation of each pair of unentangled photons from the source is random from trial to trial, but within one trial both photons always have the same polarization. So the presence of correlation alone is not enough to rule out a local model. It must be correlation that violates a Bell inequality.

Alien8 said:
Are we sure we integrated that right? If it's integrated from 0 to 2Pi but only over 1/Pi then the curve stretches out to cos2(a-b):

http://www5a.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP140920b44a6h65g2f07h00004d93g0a279789h43?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=40&w=516.&h=68.

I'm not sure what would that practically mean, but isn't it possible that might actually be the proper way to integrate it?

Yes, stevendaryl integrated it right. You can change the nomalization to ##\frac{1}{\pi}## but you must also change the upper limit of the integral to ##\pi##. In fact, since photon polarizations only vary from ##0## to ##\frac{\pi}{2}##, his integral will work if you normalize with ##\frac{1}{\pi/2}## and change the upper limit to ##\frac{\pi}{2}##.
 
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  • #62
atyy said:
If I understand stevendaryl's model correctly, this is in fact the quantum mechanical prediction for unentangled pairs, ie. without entanglement quantum mechanics does not violate the Bell inequality, and its predictions can be reproduced by a local theory. A local theory, and quantum mechanics without entanglement, is able to produce correlations between distant locations, because of correlations in the source.

Yes, plain old unpolarized and nonentangled photons, just every two in each pair having the same polarization. Not sure why you call it QM prediction when it's standard Malus' law integration for unpolarized light vs one polarizer:

http://www5a.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP40581d9f66hfh79ab24500005e9bi8g5bd9fdgi4?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=53&w=203.&h=40.

Therefore average photon probability for unpolarized light to mark "+" event is P(+) = 0.5 or 50%.

Individually then per each pair we have:

##P_a(+) = cos^2(a - \phi)##
##P_b(+) = cos^2(b - \phi)##

Two independent events, so their joint probability is: ##P_{ab}(++) = P_a(+)P_b(+)##, thus for each combination:

##P_{ab}(++) = cos^2(a - \phi) * cos^2(b - \theta)##
##P_{ab}(--) = sin^2(a - \phi) * sin^2(b - \theta)##
##P_{ab}(+-) = cos^2(a - \phi) * sin^2(b - \theta)##
##P_{ab}(-+) = sin^2(a - \phi) * cos^2(b - \theta)##

...which plugged into that same integral for ordinary unpolarized light yields expectation value based on average probability:

##E_{Malus}(a,b) = P_{ab}(++) + P_{ab}(--) - P_{ab}(+-) - P_{ab}(-+) =##

3FMSPStoreType%3Dimage%2Fgif%26s%3D58%26w%3D532.%26h%3D71.&hash=933bc6bfdf4d0ebf8dd19fdd2027377a.png


Yes, stevendaryl integrated it right. You can change the nomalization to ##\frac{1}{\pi}## but you must also change the upper limit of the integral to ##\pi##. In fact, since photon polarizations only vary from ##0## to ##\frac{\pi}{2}##, his integral will work if you normalize with ##\frac{1}{\pi/2}## and change the upper limit to ##\frac{\pi}{2}##.

Yes, we should really normalize over the whole limit, but still, it's the same freaking function... only half of it, but exactly half of it! Originally the impression I had is that local and non-local interpretations would be inherently and utterly incompatible, so I find their direct proportionality quite surprising.
 
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  • #63
Alien8 said:
Originally the impression I had is that local and non-local interpretations would be inherently and utterly incompatible, so I find their direct proportionality quite surprising.

On the contrary, they make the same predictions in most cases. This is why it took decades after the EPR paper before someone (John Bell) discovered the conditions under which they make different predictions.
 
  • #64
Alien8 said:
Yes, plain old unpolarized and nonentangled photons, just every two in each pair having the same polarization. Not sure why you call it QM prediction when it's standard Malus' law integration for unpolarized light vs one polarizer:

http://www5a.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP40581d9f66hfh79ab24500005e9bi8g5bd9fdgi4?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=53&w=203.&h=40.

Well, QM can also deal with plain old unpolarized and nonentangled photons, for which we do get Malus's law. In fact, we can even say that Malus's law applies in some sense to entangled photons if we use a technical tool in QM called the "reduced density matrix".

Alien8 said:
Yes, we should really normalize over the whole limit, but still, it's the same freaking function... only half of it, but exactly half of it! Originally the impression I had is that local and non-local interpretations would be inherently and utterly incompatible, so I find their direct proportionality quite surprising.

Me too! But in hindsight, the situation with unpolarized and unentangled photons is such that probabilities for detecting a photon are the same for all polarizer angles, and the probability of detecting a photon on both sides depends only on the difference between the polarizer angles. In other words, the source has rotational symmetry. The entangled state that is used in the quantum calculation is the Bell state, which also has rotational symmetry in the sense that it can be thought of as a pair of photons having the same polarization at some angle ##\theta## and simultaneously a pair of photons having the same polarization at the orthogonal angle ##\theta + \frac{\pi}{2}##. This particular quantum state has rotational symmetry because one can use any angle for ##\theta## without changing the quantum state. Perhaps the rotational symmetry of this particular classical example and this particular entangled quantum example makes it plausible that the unentangled and entangled curves the same shape, but with larger correlations for the entangled case.

For reference, the rotational symmetry of the quantum state is seen in Eq 1 and 3 of http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0205171. I should stress that there are entangled states without this high degree of symmetry.
 
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