Derivative = 0 is always minima? (Linear variational method)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the linear variational method in Huckel theory, specifically questioning whether the condition of the derivative being zero (##\frac{d\varepsilon }{dC_{i}} = 0##) guarantees a minimum energy state. Participants explore the implications of this condition in the context of quantum mechanics and variational principles.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the assertion that ##\frac{d\varepsilon }{dC_{i}} = 0## guarantees a minimum, noting that it could also indicate a maximum or saddle point depending on the function's behavior.
  • Another participant agrees that checking the second derivative is necessary to determine if the point is a minimum, maximum, or saddle point.
  • There is a request for references that substantiate the claim that the first derivative being zero guarantees a minimum, with specific references provided by participants.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the references, suggesting they may not include the necessary proof regarding the second derivative check.
  • A later reply mentions that in practice, the construction of trial wave functions tends to lead to solutions close to the ground state, and that minimization methods are used rather than simply finding zeros of the derivative.
  • Another participant highlights a perceived leap in logic in the explanation provided in the references, questioning the validity of assuming a minimum from the derivative condition without further mathematical justification.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on whether the condition ##\frac{d\varepsilon }{dC_{i}} = 0## can be taken as sufficient for guaranteeing a minimum. There is no consensus on the necessity or sufficiency of the second derivative check in the context of the Huckel method.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves assumptions about the behavior of the energy function and the nature of trial wave functions, which may not be fully addressed in the references cited. The mathematical steps involved in verifying the second derivative are also acknowledged as potentially tedious.

HAYAO
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I have a very fundamental question about the linear variational method (Huckel theory).

It says in any textbook that the variational method provides energy upper bound to the actual energy of a wavefunction by using test wavefunction.
\varepsilon = \frac{\sum_{i,j}^{n}C_{i}C_{j}H_{ij} }{\sum_{i,j}^{n}C_{i}C_{j}S_{ij}}
This means that the derivative of ε by Ci is 0, which would provide the minimum.

However, the right side of the equation above is a quadratic/quadratic rational function. If I understand correctly, depending on the numerator and denominator, it can also have a maximum (or might not even have any). So \frac{d\varepsilon }{dC_{i}} = 0 does not necessarily provide the minimum.

I am guessing that I am referring to a general case in mathematics, rather than special case with several constraints like in quantum mechanics. So then how do we know in this "special case" that \frac{d\varepsilon }{dC_{i}} = 0 will always give the minimum?This might be a very stupid noob question, but it was something I took for granted and never really thought about.

EDIT: In fact, actual calculation does indeed reach to an adequately right result. This is why I took it for granted. But, I wish to know why obtaining the minimum is a necessary condition.
 
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HAYAO said:
So ##\frac{d\varepsilon }{dC_{i}} = 0## does not necessarily provide the minimum.

Correct. You have to check the second derivative to see whether it's a minimum, maximum, or saddle point.
 
PeterDonis said:
Correct. You have to check the second derivative to see whether it's a minimum, maximum, or saddle point.
Oh, okay. So then why, in Huckel method, do they say "minimum can be obtained from derivative = 0"? Is this empirical? Or is there a generalized proof?
 
HAYAO said:
why, in Huckel method, do they say "minimum can be obtained from derivative = 0"?

Can you give a specific reference where this claim is made?
 
PeterDonis said:
Can you give a specific reference where this claim is made?
Page 84 of "Quantum Chemistry: Fundamentals to Applications" by Tamás Veszprémi and Miklós Fehér.

or from equation (10.6.9) from Chemwiki
 
HAYAO said:
Page 84 of "Quantum Chemistry: Fundamentals to Applications" by Tamás Veszprémi and Miklós Fehér.

or from equation (10.6.9) from Chemwiki

I don't see anything in either of these references that proves that the first derivative being zero guarantees that it is a minimum. I suspect they are simply leaving out the part where they check the second derivative and verify that they have found a minimum.
 
PeterDonis said:
I don't see anything in either of these references that proves that the first derivative being zero guarantees that it is a minimum. I suspect they are simply leaving out the part where they check the second derivative and verify that they have found a minimum.
Yes indeed, which is why I was wondering why they are saying this without any proof. In fact, I want to know if it is possible to check the second derivative. It seems to me like a tedious work.
 
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In practice, because of the way the trial wave functions are constructed, the probability of ending up anywhere else than close to the ground state. In addition, the solution is found by minimization, not by finding the zeros. (The minimization method will surely involve calculating the Jacobian, so it is easy to check that the solution found corresponds to a minimum.)
 
DrClaude said:
In practice, because of the way the trial wave functions are constructed, the probability of ending up anywhere else than close to the ground state. In addition, the solution is found by minimization, not by finding the zeros. (The minimization method will surely involve calculating the Jacobian, so it is easy to check that the solution found corresponds to a minimum.)
I'll be honest I don't know much about mathematical methods for minimization. However, I do know that a solution is found by minimization. That is pretty much the same for many methods, e.g. Hartree-Fock method.

The problem I am having is the explanation used in above links. They do not explicitly do the actual procedure of using trial functions but instead says that they can provide secular determinant from the condition that a minimum can supposedly be met when \frac{d\varepsilon }{dC_{i}} = 0, which can be used for the Huckel Method. I feel like there is a leap in logic because \frac{d\varepsilon }{dC_{i}} = 0 is not always a minimum, provided that we don't know exactly what \varepsilon = \frac{\sum_{i,j}^{n}C_{i}C_{j}H_{ij} }{\sum_{i,j}^{n}C_{i}C_{j}S_{ij}} is. I wanted to know the mathematical explanation why this is always true for LCAO variational method.
 

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