Derivative of a Variation vs Variation of a Derivative

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical treatment of variations in classical field theory, specifically addressing the relationship between the derivative of a variation and the variation of a derivative. Participants explore the conditions under which variations and derivatives can be interchanged, particularly in the context of fixed coordinates and functional variations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the justification for replacing ##\partial_{\mu}(\delta\phi)## with ##\delta(\partial_{\mu}\phi)## during the variation process.
  • Another participant asserts that variations and derivatives commute when coordinates are held fixed during the variation, referencing their role in deriving the Euler-Lagrange equations.
  • A repeated inquiry seeks to understand the underlying reasons for the commutation of variations and derivatives.
  • A participant elaborates on the definition of variation, indicating that it measures changes in the functional form of a field at fixed coordinate values, supporting the interchange of variation and derivative.
  • One participant expresses that conceptualizing ##\partial_{\mu}\phi## as an independent vector field that varies aids in understanding the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding the commutation of variations and derivatives, with some agreeing on the conditions under which this holds, while others seek further clarification. The discussion remains unresolved regarding a comprehensive justification for the interchange.

Contextual Notes

The discussion touches on the dependence of the interchange of variations and derivatives on the fixed nature of coordinates and the specific definitions of variations involved, but these aspects remain somewhat ambiguous and are not fully resolved.

quickAndLucky
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When a classical field is varied so that ##\phi ^{'}=\phi +\delta \phi## the spatial partial derivatives of the field is often written $$\partial _{\mu }\phi ^{'}=\partial _{\mu }(\phi +\delta \phi )=\partial _{\mu }\phi +\partial _{\mu }\delta \phi $$. Often times the next step is to switch the order of the variation and the partial derivative to get ##\partial _{\mu }\phi ^{'}=\partial _{\mu }\phi +\delta (\partial _{\mu }\phi )##. What justifies the replacement of ##\partial_{\mu }(\delta\phi )## by ##\delta (\partial _{\mu }\phi )##?
 
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Variations and derivatives commute if you keep your coordinates fixed during the variation. In deriving the Euler Lagrange eqns e.g. this is the case: the field variations involve functional variations.
 
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haushofer said:
Variations and derivatives commute if you keep your coordinates fixed during the variation. In deriving the Euler Lagrange eqns e.g. this is the case: the field variations involve functional variations.
I guess my question is "why do variations and derivatives commute?"
 
quickAndLucky said:
I guess my question is "why do variations and derivatives commute?"
haushofer answered your question correctly. The variation \delta measures the change in the functional form of a field at a fixed coordinate value. So, if you define the field \psi_{\mu}(x) = \partial_{\mu}\phi (x), then it follows from the definition of \delta that \delta \psi_{\mu}(x) = \psi_{\mu}^{'}(x) - \psi_{\mu}(x), or
\delta (\partial_{\mu}\phi )(x) = \partial_{\mu}\phi^{'}(x) - \partial_{\mu}\phi(x) = \partial_{\mu}\left(\phi^{'} - \phi \right) (x) = \partial_{\mu}( \delta \phi )(x) .
 
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Thinking of ##\partial _{\mu}\phi ## as an independent vector field that itself varies seemed to help! Thanks haushofer and samalkhaiat!
 

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