Generalising the Euler-Lagrange equation for scalar fields

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around generalizing the Euler-Lagrange equation for scalar fields, specifically when the action includes higher-order derivatives of the field. Participants explore the implications of this generalization on the formulation of the equation and the assumptions required for boundary conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the general form of the Euler-Lagrange equation for an action that includes second derivatives of the field and discusses the additional terms that arise.
  • Another participant suggests that the first term in the variation does not need to be altered and becomes part of the new Euler-Lagrange equations.
  • A different participant questions whether it is necessary to factor out the variation of the field from the first term and seeks suggestions for doing so.
  • Another participant corrects a previous statement, indicating that the first term does not remain after integration by parts, while the fourth term does not vanish and is significant.
  • One participant expresses concern about the physicality of assuming that certain boundary terms vanish at infinity when integrating by parts.
  • Another participant proposes that it is reasonable to assume that both the variation of the field and its first derivative vanish at infinity to avoid unphysical scenarios.
  • A later reply questions whether all higher-order derivatives of the field should also vanish at the boundary.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the treatment of boundary terms and the assumptions regarding the behavior of the field and its derivatives at infinity. There is no consensus on the necessity of certain assumptions or the implications of higher-order derivatives in the Euler-Lagrange equation.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for assumptions about the behavior of the field and its derivatives at infinity, which remain unresolved and may affect the validity of the generalization.

spaghetti3451
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The Euler-Lagrange equation obtained from the action ##S=\int\ d^{4}x\ \mathcal{L}(\phi,\partial_{\mu}\phi)## is ##\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial\phi}-\partial_{\mu}\big(\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\phi)}\big)=0##.

My goal is to generalise the Euler-Lagrange equation for the action ##S=\int\ d^{4}x\ \mathcal{L}(\phi,\partial_{\mu}\phi, \partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)##.

The variation of the Lagrangian density this time contains the extra term ##\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\delta(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)##. Now,

##\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\delta(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)##

##=\partial_{\mu}\Big[\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\partial_{\nu}(\delta\phi)\Big]-\partial_{\mu}\Big[\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\Big]\partial_{\nu}(\delta\phi)##

##=\partial_{\mu}\Big[\partial_{\nu}\big(\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\delta\phi\big)-\partial_{\nu}\big(\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\big)\delta\phi\Big]-\Big[\partial_{\nu}\Big(\partial_{\mu}\big(\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\big)\delta\phi\Big)-\partial_{\nu}\partial_{\mu}\Big(\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\Big)\delta\phi\Big]##

Now, in the fourth term, ##\partial_{\nu}\partial_{\mu}\Big(\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\Big)=0## for arbitrary ##\delta\phi## - this is the new term in the Euler-Lagrange equation.

The second and third terms must give zero, by Gauss' theorem and under the assumption that the field vanishes at spatial or temporal infinity.

What do I do about the first term? Should I have to introduce a constraint on the derivative ##\partial_{\nu}\big(\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\delta\phi\big)## - I don't want to, because it's not physical.
 
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You don't do anything about the first term. It becomes part of the new Euler-Lagrange equations. Every time you make the Lagrangian depend on a higher order derivative, the Euler-Lagrange equations increase in order.
 
Well, at least I need to factor out ##\delta\phi## from the first term ##\partial_{\mu}\Big[\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\partial_{\nu}(\delta\phi)\Big]##, don't I?

Could you suggest a way in which this could be done?
 
failexam said:
Could you suggest a way in which this could be done?
Sorry I got it wrong, the first term doesn't remain. The fourth one does, since it is the only term that does not go away with integration by parts. The first three terms are boundary terms, since they are integrals of a divergence.
 
Hmm...

Well, if I integrate the term ##\partial_{\mu}\Big[\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\partial_{\nu}(\delta\phi)\Big]## by parts, then the boundary term is ##\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\partial_{\nu}\phi)}\partial_{\nu}(\delta\phi)##, but to set this boundary term to zero, I need to assume that ##\delta(\partial_{\nu}\phi)## is zero at temporal and spatial infinity. Isn't this a little unphysical?
 
Let us make the usual assumption that ##\delta \phi## vanishes at infinity. That means ##\delta \phi## gets closer and closer to ##0## as the point in question gets closer and closer to infinity (this can be easily formulated more rigorously). Now, I do believe there is an extra assumption that ##\partial_\nu(\delta\phi)## also converges to ##0## as you go to infinity. This assumption actually seems very reasonable to me, because otherwise you would have a field that is rapidly oscillating as you go to infinity.
 
Hmm...

Would you also expect all the higher-order derivatives of the field to vanish at the boundary?
 
Last edited:

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