Derivative of this function is injective everywhere

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the injectivity of the derivative of a function defined from the real numbers to two-dimensional space, specifically the function ##f(x) = \langle \sin (2 \pi x), \cos (2 \pi x) \rangle##. Participants explore the implications of the function being not one-to-one while questioning the injectivity of its derivative map ##Df(x)## across all real numbers. The scope includes theoretical considerations of derivatives, injectivity, and the behavior of functions over specific intervals.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the function is not injective because ##f(x+1) = f(x)##, raising questions about the injectivity of the derivative.
  • Another participant requests clarification on the definition of ##Df(x)## and suggests that injectivity may only make sense in a specific context.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding the concept of "injective at a point" and seek further clarification on the implications of the derivative being injective.
  • One participant points out that the differential can have multiple interpretations depending on the perspective taken, particularly regarding the mapping of tangent vectors.
  • There is a discussion about whether the inner product notation used in the context of the differential holds for any manifolds or is specific to the case of ##\mathbb{R}## and ##\mathbb{R}^2##.
  • A participant suggests that restricting the domain to an interval like ##(0, 1]## could simplify the analysis of the injectivity of the differential map.
  • Another participant clarifies that the injectivity of the derivative at a point refers to the mapping of tangent vectors, not the function itself evaluated at different points.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the discussion lacks precision regarding the definitions and implications of injectivity in this context. There are competing views on the interpretation of the derivative's injectivity and its dependence on the point of evaluation, leaving the discussion unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the ambiguity in the terminology surrounding derivatives and injectivity, particularly in relation to different perspectives on the mapping of tangent vectors and the implications of the function's periodicity.

kent davidge
Messages
931
Reaction score
56
I'm reading a pdf where it's said that the function ##f: \mathbb R \longrightarrow \mathbb{R}^2## given by ##f(x) = \langle \sin (2 \pi x), \cos ( 2 \pi x) \rangle## is not one-to-one, because ##f(x+1) = f(x)##. This is pretty obvious to me. What I don't understand is that next they say that the derivative map, which they denote by ##Df(x)##, is injective for all ##x \in \mathbb R##. How can it be?

Is'nt the derivative given by ##2 \pi \langle \cos (2 \pi x), - \sin (2 \pi x) \rangle##? It's easy to see that it's the same for ##x## and ##x + 1##.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Can you upload an image or give the precise wording, the definition of ##Df(x)## included? Injective for all x doesn't make much sense, except if ##y \longmapsto (Df(x))(y)## is the function considered, e.g ##(Df(x))(y)= \left. \dfrac{d}{dx}\right|_{x=y} f(x)##. This isn't injective, but e.g. ##p \longmapsto (p,Df)## is. Anyway, injective at a point, what should that be?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: kent davidge
I agree with you in that it's not very precise.
fresh_42 said:
Anyway, injective at a point, what should that be?
I also had this thought

The PDF is here https://www.math.lsu.edu/~lawson/Chapter6.pdf

The considered case is in the example after the first definition (6.1).
 
kent davidge said:
I agree with you in that it's not very precise.

I also had this thought

The PDF is here https://www.math.lsu.edu/~lawson/Chapter6.pdf

The considered case is in the example after the first definition (6.1).
Example 6.2 in the PDF has a restricted domain, the open interval ##N = (-\pi/4, 3\pi/4)##. On this interval the function of the example is one-to-one.
 
Mark44 said:
Example 6.2 in the PDF has a restricted domain, the open interval ##N = (-\pi/4, 3\pi/4)##. On this interval the function of the example is one-to-one.
I'm sorry if I seemed to point to example 6.2. I meant example after definition 6.1 but above example 6.2 :biggrin:
 
kent davidge said:
I agree with you in that it's not very precise.

I also had this thought

The PDF is here https://www.math.lsu.edu/~lawson/Chapter6.pdf

The considered case is in the example after the first definition (6.1).
Yes, it is as I suspected. The differential is a mean thing, because it has so many meanings, depending on the perspective, i.e. on the variables regarded. Here we have:
$$
f\, : \,\mathbb{R} \longrightarrow \mathbb{R}^2 \\
D_xf\, : \,T_x\mathbb{R} = \mathbb{R} \longrightarrow T_{f(x)}\mathbb{R}^2=\mathbb{R}^2
$$
where each tangent vector (here a point) is mapped to a pair of tangent vectors. The injective function is
$$
Df(x)=D_xf \, : \, v \longrightarrow \left(\langle Df_1(x),v \rangle,\langle Df_2(x),v \rangle\right) \text{ for all vectors } v\in T_x\mathbb{R}
$$
which are real numbers in this case, so ##Df(x)(y)=\left( 2\pi y \cos(2\pi x)\; , \;-2\pi y\sin(2\pi x) \right)## which is injective in the tangent vector variable ##y \in T_x\mathbb{R}=\mathbb{R}## for any given fixed ##x \in \mathbb{R}##, the manifold.

I couldn't resist and once made a list of how a differential can be seen. If you want to have a look:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/journey-manifold-su2mathbbc-part/
It's the list of ten items, quite at the beginning. You're perhaps also interested to read:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-pantheon-of-derivatives-i/
where I tried to shed some light on the various conceptions, yours included.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: kent davidge
Oh thanks. I will read your linked posts.
fresh_42 said:
$$
Df(x)=D_xf \, : \, v \longrightarrow \left(\langle Df_1(x),v \rangle,\langle Df_2(x),v \rangle\right) \text{ for all vectors } v\in T_x\mathbb{R}
$$
Are those angled brackets inner products? Does that relation holds for any manifolds ##\mathcal M ## and ##\mathcal N## or only for this (apparent) special case of ##\mathcal M = \mathbb R## and ##\mathcal N = \mathbb{R}^2##?
 
kent davidge said:
Oh thanks. I will read your linked posts.

Are those angled brackets inner products?
Yes, although it's a bit over the top here, as we only have numbers. The differential is generally a linear transformation: "times slope", "gradient", "Jacobi matrix". So it applies to vectors: ##(D_xf)(v)##, the direction of the tangent, resp. the differential. In this case the vector is one-dimensional, but nevertheless a vector. In one, resp. each coordinate this can be written as an inner product.
Btw. it's better to write the point at which a derivative is evaluated by an index as ##Df(x)=D_xf## so that it is clearer what is what.
Does that relation holds for any manifolds ##\mathcal M ## and ##\mathcal N## or only for this (apparent) special case of ##\mathcal M = \mathbb R## and ##\mathcal N = \mathbb{R}^2##?
Yes, it holds in any case. We have ##f\, : \,\mathcal{M} \longrightarrow \mathcal{N}## and ##D_pf\, : \,T_p\mathcal{M} \longrightarrow T_{f(p)}\mathcal{N}##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: kent davidge
Upon thinking about this, I realized that we can bring ##x## to just an interval like ##(0, 1]##. In such case it's easy to see that the "differential map matrix" ##2 \pi (\cos (2 \pi x), - \sin (2 \pi x))## is injective everywhere. Wouldn't taking this approach to the case end up being more concise?
 
  • #10
kent davidge said:
Upon thinking about this, I realized that we can bring ##x## to just an interval like ##(0, 1]##. In such case it's easy to see that the "differential map matrix" ##2 \pi (\cos (2 \pi x), - \sin (2 \pi x))## is injective everywhere. Wouldn't taking this approach to the case end up being more concise?
You confuse the functions. Quote: ##D_xf## is injective for all ##x##, means the function ##v \longmapsto (D_xf)(v)## is injective. So to say the Jacobi matrix at any point ##x## of evaluation is injective. What you are talking about is ##x \longmapsto D_xf## which is a different function. I haven't checked whether ##D_{(.)}f## depends injective on the point of evaluation. It wasn't stated nor meant. The way the script deals with it, is a fixed point ##x## on the left side and ##f(x)## on the right, but the function is for a certain ##x## mapping tangent vectors ##v##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: mathwonk and kent davidge

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K