Deriving a Minkowski Force Matrix: Exploring 4-force

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and representation of the Minkowski force in the context of special relativity, particularly focusing on the 4-force and its relationship to electromagnetic fields. Participants explore the mathematical formulation and transformation of the force using tensors and Lorentz transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a form of the Minkowski force and questions whether it can be expressed in a specific matrix form suitable for deriving the Lorentz transformation matrix.
  • Another participant suggests starting with the Faraday tensor and using it to express the force, indicating that the force can be transformed using Lorentz transformations.
  • A participant expresses their unfamiliarity with tensors and indicates a preference for basic math, while also attempting to clarify the concept of a Lorentz boost.
  • There is a correction regarding the representation of the Minkowski force, emphasizing the need to properly denote the components of the force vector and its transformation properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to derive the Minkowski force or the correct matrix representation. Multiple viewpoints and methods are presented, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty regarding the mathematical details and the use of tensors, which may limit their ability to engage fully with the discussion. The discussion also reflects varying levels of familiarity with the concepts involved.

71GA
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Our professor derived a Minkowski force like this:

[itex] F^\mu = \left[ \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v}\times \vec{B})) , \gamma \frac{e \vec{E} \vec{v}}{c} \right][/itex]

Does this mean that i can write 4-force like this?

[itex] F^\mu = <br /> \begin{bmatrix}<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v_x}\times \vec{B}))\\<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v_y}\times \vec{B}))\\<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v_z}\times \vec{B}))\\<br /> \gamma \frac{e \vec{E} \vec{v}}{c}<br /> \end{bmatrix}[/itex]

Short anwser would be ok. How do i put this into a matrix form from which i can get Lorentz matrix ##\Lambda## for boost in $x$ direction?
 
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It's easier if you start with the Faraday tensor (F) and write the force (f) as,
[tex] f^\mu = F^{\mu\nu}J_\nu[/tex]
then you can boost the field tensor F and J ( current) with [itex]\Lambda[/itex] to get the transformed force. The Wiki article might be relevant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_tensor
 
Mentz114 said:
It's easier if you start with the Faraday tensor (F) and write the force (f) as,
[tex] f^\mu = F^{\mu\nu}J_\nu[/tex]
then you can boost the field tensor F and j ( current) with [itex]\Lambda[/itex] to get the transformed force.

I am new to this and have never encountered tensors before. This is why i have to use basic math. Some day when things are clear to me in simple math i can learn advanced math and swich to tensors.
 
71GA said:
I am new to this and have never encountered tensors before. This is why i have to use basic math. Some day when things are clear to me in simple math i can learn advanced math and swich to tensors.

OK.

I think what your professor has written is the electrostatic force after the field has been boosted by v = √(vx2+vy2+vz2). A 'boost' is a Lorentz, transformation, in case you're not familiar with the term. In this case, the tensor expressions are like matrix and vector operations so that

[itex]f'=F'\cdot J'[/itex], [itex]F' = \Lambda(v)\cdot F\cdot\Lambda(v)[/itex] and [itex]J' = \Lambda(-v)\cdot J[/itex].
 
Last edited:
71GA said:
Our professor derived a Minkowski force like this:

[itex] F^\mu = \left[ \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v}\times \vec{B})) , \gamma \frac{e \vec{E} \vec{v}}{c} \right][/itex]

Does this mean that i can write 4-force like this?

[itex] F^\mu = <br /> \begin{bmatrix}<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v_x}\times \vec{B}))\\<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v_y}\times \vec{B}))\\<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v_z}\times \vec{B}))\\<br /> \gamma \frac{e \vec{E} \vec{v}}{c}<br /> \end{bmatrix}[/itex]

Short anwser would be ok. How do i put this into a matrix form from which i can get Lorentz matrix ##\Lambda## for boost in $x$ direction?
You have some misprints.
It should be
[itex] F^\mu = <br /> \begin{bmatrix}<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v}\times \vec{B}))_x\\<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v}\times \vec{B}))_y\\<br /> \gamma(e\vec{E} + e(\vec{v}\times \vec{B}))_z\\<br /> \gamma \frac{e \vec{v}\cdot\vec{E} }{c}<br /> \end{bmatrix}[/itex].
Then F^\mu transforms like any other four-vector.
 
Last edited:

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