Determinant always equal to zero?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of determinants in relation to the product of matrices, specifically focusing on whether the product of a 3x2 matrix and a 2x3 matrix will always yield a determinant of zero. Participants explore theoretical implications, mathematical reasoning, and provide various perspectives on the topic.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that their program consistently yields a determinant of zero for the product of a 3x2 and a 2x3 matrix and questions if there is a theorem that guarantees this outcome.
  • Another participant references a result in linear algebra stating that the rank of the product of two matrices is less than or equal to the minimum of the ranks of the individual matrices.
  • A participant expresses a desire for a proof that does not involve ranks, indicating a lack of familiarity with the concept.
  • One contributor explains that mapping a 3-dimensional vector through a 2x3 matrix results in a 2-dimensional vector, which when mapped back through a 3x2 matrix remains a plane, leading to the conclusion that the product has only two independent columns, thus the determinant is zero.
  • Another participant elaborates on the concept of linear maps, explaining how dimensionality is affected when applying a 3x2 matrix to a 2-dimensional space, ultimately leading to a many-to-one mapping that cannot be invertible.
  • There is a suggestion that trying the product of a 2x3 matrix and a 3x2 matrix might yield different results, provided the matrices are of maximum rank.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to prove that the determinant is zero without using ranks. Multiple viewpoints and explanations are presented, indicating a lack of agreement on the necessity of rank in the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty regarding the concept of rank and its implications for determinants. The discussion also highlights the dependence on the properties of the matrices involved, such as their ranks and dimensions, without resolving these complexities.

alexmahone
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I just finished writing a computer program that takes as input a number of matrices and computes the inverse of the product of matrices.

To test this program, I wanted to input a 3x2 matrix followed by a 2x3 matrix so that the product would be a 3x3 matrix. No matter how hard I try, the determinant of the product turns out to be zero and so the product is non-invertible. Is there a theorem in linear algebra that implies that the product of a 3x2 matrix and 2x3 matrix will always have determinant zero?
 
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Hi,

Yes, there is a result that fit very well.

Given any two matrices $A,B$ of size $n\times m$ and $m \times r$ (this is just to ensure we can multiply them) then $rank(AB)\leq \ \min{\{ rank(A),rank(B)\}}$.
 
Fallen Angel said:
Hi,

Yes, there is a result that fit very well.

Given any two matrices $A,B$ of size $n\times m$ and $m \times r$ (this is just to ensure we can multiply them) then $rank(AB)\leq \ \min{\{ rank(A),rank(B)\}}$.

Sorry, I don't know about ranks. Is there a way to prove that the determinant is zero without using ranks?
 
Well,

You can set $A=\left(\begin{array}{cc} a_1 & a_2 \\ a_3 & a_4 \\ a_5 & a_6 \end{array}\right)$ and $B=\left( \begin{array}{ccc} b_1 & b_2 & b_3 \\ b_4 & b_5 & b_6 \end{array}\right)$ and make all the computations, but it is pretty much easier if you have some linear algebra background.

For instance, it will be enough if you know the relation between matrices and linear applications, do you know it?
 
Alexmahone said:
Sorry, I don't know about ranks. Is there a way to prove that the determinant is zero without using ranks?

Hi Alexmahone,

If you put a 3-dimensional vector in a 2x3 matrix, the result is a 2-dimensional vector - a plane.
If you then put that 2-dimensional vector in a 3x2 matrix, the result is still a plane, albeit in 3 dimensions.
The consequence is that the product of those 2 matrices only has 2 independent columns - the vectors that span the plane.
Therefore the determinant is zero.
 
(Multiplication by) a matrix is a LINEAR map-one consequence of this is it maps subspaces of a vector space to subspaces of another vector space.

If you have an $m \times n$ matrix with real entries, the vector spaces in question are $\Bbb R^n$ and $\Bbb R^m$, that is to say an $m \times n$ matrix when multiplied by "on the left" takes an $n$-tuple to an $m$-tuple:

$(m \times n)(n \times 1) \to m\times 1$.

So let's say you have a 3x2 matrix. Even though you are mapping INTO a space of a larger dimension, you don't wind up with the whole space "being reached", you only get (at best) a two-dimensional subspace...a plane. Which plane? The plane spanned by the two columns of our matrix:

$\begin{bmatrix}a_{11}&a_{12}\\a_{21}&a_{22}\\a_{31}&a_{32}\end{bmatrix}\begin{bmatrix}x\\y\end{bmatrix} =\begin{bmatrix}a_{11}&a_{12}\\a_{21}&a_{22}\\a_{31}&a_{32}\end{bmatrix}\left(x\begin{bmatrix}1\\0\end{bmatrix}+y\begin{bmatrix}0\\1\end{bmatrix}\right)$

$= x\begin{bmatrix}a_{11}&a_{12}\\a_{21}&a_{22}\\a_{31}&a_{32}\end{bmatrix}\begin{bmatrix}1\\0\end{bmatrix} + y\begin{bmatrix}a_{11}&a_{12}\\a_{21}&a_{22}\\a_{31}&a_{32}\end{bmatrix}\begin{bmatrix}0\\1\end{bmatrix}$

$ = x\begin{bmatrix}a_{11}\\a_{21}\\a_{31}\end{bmatrix} + y\begin{bmatrix}a_{12}\\a_{22}\\a_{32}\end{bmatrix}$.

Now if you start with a 2x3 matrix, you take a 3-dimensional space and shrink it to a (at most) 2-dimensional space. As you can see from the above, hitting the two-dimensional space with a 3x2 matrix doesn't "blow it back up" again, it will stay at most "two-dimensional".

So the net effect is this (at best, more shrinkage could occur if we have "bad matrices"), just looking at dimensionality:

$3 \to 2 \to 2$.

We lose an entire dimension, which is to say our "combo mapping" (the composition, or matrix product) isn't 1-1, it's "many-to-one". Such a mapping cannot possibly be invertible (any inverse isn't "uniquely defined", and some triples in $\Bbb R^3$ will "never be reached", so we can't find any "pre-image").

You should have much better luck if you try "the other product": a 2x3 times a 3x2 matrix, which does this to the dimensions (if your matrices are "nice"-that is, of maximum rank):

$2 \to 2 \to 2$.
 

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